r/Damnthatsinteresting 13d ago Gold 1 Wholesome 1 All-Seeing Upvote 1 hehehehe 1 Faith In Humanity Restored 1

What you see below, in the couple of pictures is the lifestyle of the prisoners in Halden’s maximum security prison Norway. Norway prison views themselves more as rehabilitation center.

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u/Si_the_chef 12d ago

A few months ago I watched a documentary on Thailands toughest prison, literally one of the most dangerous prisons on earth,

They shifted focus from punishment to rehabilitation

They teach the inmates to make furniture for local impoverished schools, not just.... here fucko make a chair... but teach them carpentry or other trade skills then give them the opportunity to put the skills to use for something worthwhile

They slashed their reoffender rates and from the documentary its no longer as dangerous.

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u/Wermine 12d ago

Damn, I thought you would continue "They slashed their" with "instructors with carpenter tools". Glad it wasn't the case.

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u/HashTruffle 13d ago Silver

Redditors dreaming of a life better than their current one

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u/neil_billiam 13d ago Gold Take My Energy

They tried to make me go to Rehab

But I said no, no, no where do I sign?

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u/Blackybro_ 13d ago Gold

i am in rehabilitation currently and the day I went there this song was on the radio

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u/geophilo 12d ago Hugz I'll Drink to That

3 months of rehab saved my life. Finally a chance to pause the chaos of my life, to have a little protection from my own destructive impulses, time to grow and reflect. I went from a suicidal drug addict to now I'm almost done with a master's degree. I owe so much of it to rehab. Soak it in man. It's so worth it.

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u/ChodeZillaChubSquad 12d ago

What is your field of study?

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u/geophilo 12d ago

I study medical psychiatry

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u/datameshlearning 12d ago

Definitely thought it was gonna be geography from the name

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u/geophilo 12d ago

Nah I just love nature

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u/Ninjuhdelic 12d ago

thats super inspiring. Thank you deeply for sharing that. Helps me stay on the path =)

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u/geophilo 12d ago

The longer you stay sober the better life gets. I was in rehab in 2018. Took a couple years to really heal and get motivation. I highly suggest getting a therapist to work through the inevitable fallout of facing ones past/ overcoming long held bad habits. Don't fear the company of like-minded individuals too. Recovery groups can be an incredible source of strength. If tradional AA type groups aren't your thing, look into Refuge Recovery/ Dharma Recovery. Meditation based, non judgemental recovery of all types. Not just alcohol. There's a lot of beauty in the world. Get outside when possible. Take long walks in nature if possible. Find experiences and habits that cultivate peace. From a place of peace one can better overcome the dark aspects of human nature.

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u/neil_billiam 13d ago

Good work my man. I can say from experience, the only thing you need to succeed in that regard, is to want it.

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u/Blackybro_ 13d ago

jup

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u/baw1387 13d ago

Good for you for changing your life. It's really fucking hard. Stay strong.

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u/przprz 13d ago

I went to rehab too and it was one if the best experiences of my life ever, do not change the path that you're on right now. Enough of the excuses and the bull shit, you decided to be there for a reason now consider every other person that doesn't have the opportunity you do and take advantage of the chance you have right now.

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u/G_Unit_Solider 12d ago

i never went to rehab but i eventually hit rock bottom and went cold turkey on my own after alot of shitty days i couldent take it anymore. its been 5 years ive made alot of progress since stable job home a car i got brand new in 2021 paid off all my debt fixing my credit score etc. But one thing thats been chewing me apart is no one believes that i am clean. Not my family not the few friends i have and it really brings me down i did all this to feel normal again to be looked at like a normal person again and im still alienated for who i was. And it really sucks.

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u/Blackybro_ 12d ago

in such cases you just need to say fuck off to other peoples opinions. you did this and I they don’t believe you its not your fault

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u/skinOC 12d ago

Change your friends.

When you can't change your people, change your people.

Good on you for changing.

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u/cloversclo 12d ago

I went to a rehab facility that was actually a homeless shelter. They had a 90 day program but had to call it a homeless shelter to get funding, of course most everyone in there was homeless including myself.

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u/kcg5 13d ago

Keep the faith homie. I believe in you

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u/KIRK2D 13d ago

You don't sign, you commit crime, it's simple in three easy steps, 1) knock on someone's door, 2) pull out preference of weapon, 3) you shouldn't need an explanation on this step

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u/BlizzPenguin 13d ago

You get a better-quality prison if you do a white-collar crime.

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u/PureResolve649 13d ago edited 12d ago

They cannot be in with peasants. For gods sake man, you’re not suggesting equal punishment are you?

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u/neil_billiam 13d ago

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u/prbrr 13d ago

He spent a year in jail, found out he didn't actually have cancer, then finally plead down to misdemeanor larceny and was released.

https://www.wbtv.com/story/18967542/man-who-robbed-bank-for-free-helalthcare-released/

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u/Bubbly-Kitty-2425 12d ago

There was an old guy who robbed a bank to get away from his wife…they sentenced him to house arrest.

story

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/Relevant_Impact_3955 13d ago Gold

Have you tried turning the difficulty from expert to beginner? Lol jk life is tough tho...

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u/[deleted] 13d ago Gold

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u/Real-Lake2639 13d ago

Look at it this way, my parents wouldn't let me move in with them when I was homeless because they think I'm a drug addict. I'm not, I'm an electrician, but put all my money in a house with my girlfriend who subsequently dumped me.

They're like, you're living in your truck? Uh, I mean, that's the plan, none of my friends have spare bedrooms, I'm the first one to get their shit together and buy a house.

People don't realize just how close they are to being homeless, it's fricking crazy. One bad thing can happen and just bang. On the streets.

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u/Zachyd1986 12d ago

Ive worked full time for 10 years straight. Missed less than 10 days of work for any reason and have found myself homeless 3 times. Moved into some fucked up situations to not end up at the city mission.

Ive never been able to afford going on vacation. I made twice as much as I usually make last year, and all it did was make me able to pay all my bills instead of things going into collections.

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u/skwudgeball 13d ago edited 12d ago

Uhhh you put all your money in a house, you got dumped… what did you give her the house free of charge? I don’t understand how you go from buying a house to being homeless because of a break up? That is not normal, 99.9% of people are not a breakup away from being homeless

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u/enfanta 12d ago

They probably bought the house with a loan. They probably didn't own it outright when the shit hit the fan.

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u/Relevant_Impact_3955 13d ago

You might gain + 15 resilience tho dude...and what about your luck stat? How's that looking?

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u/[deleted] 13d ago Tearing Up

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u/t_for_top 13d ago

dm me homie I'll order you a pizza or smth

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u/Relevant_Impact_3955 13d ago

Man that SUCKS!!! look if it makes you feel any better, I just got out of prison 😜 it was nothing like these pictures lol then again I don't live in Norway either haha

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/Relevant_Impact_3955 13d ago

Ok let's do it!!! Just wait up on me I gotta cross Mexico first!!! Lol

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u/TakingAMindwalk 13d ago

I have to cross the ocean and a few countries but I'll see you guys in prison when I get there.

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u/whospitinherbeancurd 13d ago

Dude DM me, happy to replace this takeout

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u/Beerspaz12 13d ago

I completely misread this and thought that the bag ripping was the event from years ago you still have not recovered from yet... and I thought I had finally met my other half :(

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u/xoomax 13d ago

Still having a sense of humor is something I think.

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u/chopstyks 13d ago

Username checks out.

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u/Dutch_Rayan 13d ago Gold All-Seeing Upvote Take My Energy Wholesome Seal of Approval Brighten My Day

This place is only for good behaving inmates that are almost at the end of their time, to get them accustomed to live outside and learning the life skill they need to succeed in life and not turn back to crime. Recidivism is low in Norway, because they want the inmates to not turn to crime again and learn them useful skills and give treatment if needed.

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u/SnakesAndSparklers69 13d ago

This is a critical point

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u/DesoTheDegenerate 13d ago Starry Rocket Like

Another thing that seems to get lost in these threads is the primary purpose of imprisonment.

The primary purpose is to keep the general public safe from individuals who refuse to follow the law set forth by democratically elected representatives.

Rehabilitation is critical for reducing the amount of people who go back to prison, but in the absence of that goal, containment still needs to be met. That doesn't suddenly change the purpose of containment to sadistic punishment.

In my neighborhood, there are several well-known individuals who will try to steal anything they can get their hands on to fill their substance abuse problems. They have been arrested, literal hundreds of times, yet the DA never presses charges because "it's a mental health issue".

Meanwhile, the law abiding citizens have to pay for this decision as our cars are broken into, our bikes are stolen, and our streets are littered with fentanyl contaminated drug paraphernalia.

To be clear, I think people should be able to do whatever drugs they want in their homes. However, once the substance usage reaches a point where you begin putting everything else behind substance usage, you have a major problem and will end up homeless if it goes on unchecked.

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u/Kharaaz 13d ago

They have been arrested, literal hundreds of times, yet the DA never presses charges because "it's a mental health issue".

In that case a judge or other decision-makers (in the Netherlands the mayor of a city can do this as well afaik) can involuntarily commit people to mental health institutions. However, law abiding citizens have to pay for this decision, too, as they would for imprisonment. It is a mental health issue and it will put some strain on society either way, but it is something a functioning society should be equipped to deal with without just locking people up forever.

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u/jedberg 13d ago edited 13d ago

That's something we used to have here in the USA too. Until Regan cut funding for most of the mental health care in the country.

Yay Regan!

Edit: As many have pointed out below, Kennedy started the decline because the mental health system destroyed his sister, and the institutions were not great places to begin with. But they were starting to get better in the early 80s until Regan pulled all the rest of their funding, saying that it wasn't the job of the Government to help them, but private institutions.

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u/Quirky-Skin 13d ago

Prisons became our mental health institutions and the results are apparent decades later with homelessness and unchecked mental illness

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u/platon20 13d ago

Indeed. The largest mental health facility in the country is at Rikers Island. Think about that for a moment.

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u/Kharaaz 13d ago

One of my uni-books on criminology had a diagram similar to this. I can't find the original picture I took back then but it does a good job at driving the point home.

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u/ilovethissheet 13d ago

There needs to be a third line in this graph with homeless.

We locked up a shit ton of people for 20 years for a gram of crack in the 80s and 90s. Homelessness exploded with a dual bang of the 2008 financial crisis getting a large portion of the blame but everyone forgets a large majority of people were starting to get released at the same exact time. When someone was locked away for 20 years and then just released with nowhere to go, no resources to help, no skills and etc. What the fuck did everyone think was gonna happen?

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u/DJ-Anakin 12d ago

Many people just want punishment for them, not rehabilitation. Sad. How can we ever improve if we just sweep the low hanging fruit under a rug.

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u/snailspace 13d ago

It was a variety of things, but the most important of which was after the Supreme Court ruled on Addington v. Texas in 1979 which raised the burden of proof for involuntary commitment to an asylum.

Because of the uncertainties of psychiatric diagnosis, the burden of proof does not need to be as high as "beyond a reasonable doubt" in criminal cases, but should be a "clear and convincing" standard of proof as required by the Fourteenth Amendment in such a civil proceeding to commit an individual involuntarily for an indefinite period to a state psychiatric hospital.

This was after the O'Connor v. Donaldson case in 1975 that found "a state cannot constitutionally confine a non-dangerous individual who is capable of surviving safely in freedom by themselves or with the help of willing and responsible family members or friends."

On the one hand, great news for civil rights since it made being involuntary committed much harder. The asylums had a deservedly poor reputation for treatment and release policies (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment). On the other hand, it meant that actual crazy people were released from state custody with not much more than an affirmation that they would continue to take their meds.

So even with unlimited funding, it's unlawful for mental health facilities to detain patients long-term without serious legal hurdles.

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u/TravelAdvanced 13d ago

It's more complicated than that unfortunately. There was wide acceptance in the mental health field that the previous approach of institutionalization was wrong. There was agreement that people needed to stop being functionally warehoused in institutions, which were infamous for being inhumane in places.

This meant a shift to community-based treatment- ie where people actually live, that is not inpatient.

Now, under Reagan, institutions were widely closed, which wasn't really an example of republican budget cutting so much as a shift in approach.

However, funding was not provided to create the necessary community-based alternatives and infrastructure (and let's be real- no republican will ever make such a thing happen outside of R's in D states a la Romneycare).

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u/MightyCaseyStruckOut 13d ago

The older I get, the more I understand why my dad absolutely loathed Ronald Reagan.

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u/Schavuit92 13d ago

Actual based boomer.

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u/MightyCaseyStruckOut 13d ago

Silent Generation, actually.

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u/nosnevenaes 13d ago

my personal faves

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u/implicitpharmakoi 13d ago

You missed the greatest generation then.

They had their flaws, but damn, they were actually pretty amazing.

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u/Jinglesandbells 13d ago

My grandfather did too. Only president he talked poorly about.

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u/BasedFrodo 13d ago

Reagan destroyed this country with a sleeper missile that only recently hit. Now we are enjoying the fallout of that fucker.

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u/A_Have_a_Go_Opinion 13d ago

The process of gutting mental healthcare in the United States began in the 1950s as psychiatric drugs were discovered and continued all the way to todays U.S. government. Regan certainly played his part but he's not the bogey man to pin all the blame on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rosenhan_experiment this and other stuff undermined the faith people had in psychiatric hospitals. Toss in some high profile cases of abuse, neglect, outright fraud and the public consensus was behind not spending public money on these things.

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u/mr_mgs11 13d ago

The problem with you argument is there is very little attempt at rehabilitation in our prison system. We have an archaic punishment oriented system, and every instance of incarceration makes that persons life and prospects more difficult. Your in a hole? Lets dig it deeper and throw you back in. Then we wonder why they don't get themselves out of that deeper hole. My brother broke into a drug dealers house (think neighborhood weed guy, not hardcore criminal) and stole a gun at age 17. That shit followed him all the way up to his death at 38. Want a decent job? Well you did something dumb as a kid and caught a felony charge, oh well be poor. No violent crimes ever. Just that one charge and VOP's for stupid shit relating to that one charge.

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u/DigitalUnlimited 12d ago

Also it's all financial. One little mistake gets you a parking ticket. Can't afford to pay a parking ticket? More fines, lose your license. Get caught driving? More crimes, more fines. Can't afford a good lawyer? Etc...and continue. I think one of the best examples of American "justice" is OJ Simpson. Dude literally murders someone, but he's rich and well connected. Seriously have to keep committing crimes until you're flat broke, THEN we'll send you to jail.

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u/Memory_Less 13d ago

And the legal system has a major gap in its ability to prevent recitivism. There seem to be inadequate, or no mental health addictions services to achieve a return to healthy societal functioning.

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u/JawnZ 13d ago

Another thing that seems to get lost in these threads is the primary purpose of imprisonment

The American Justice system is build on the idea of vengeance with the spectre of "safety" being used to continue to prop up a very corrupt money making industry.

Study show time and again that the way that American handles crime doesn't do a great job of lowering the crime rate.

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u/Not_A_Gravedigger 13d ago

It's crazy how helping people actually helps people.

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u/IHateTheLetterF 13d ago

Its weird how treating prisoners like animals turns them into animals.

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u/SomeoneElseWhoCares 13d ago

Also, corporate prisons don't do a great job of discouraging prisoners from returning, since they need the repeat business. It seems like a conflict of interest to have for-profit prisons.

While we are at it, sometimes good social programs can also help to avoid the need for jail as well, but a lot of people would rather pay $100k to imprison someone, rather than $5k on social programs to help keep people out of prison.

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u/pohuing 13d ago

Private prisons contain 8% of US prisoners, this is an issue of the entire prison system. The focus on private prisons is misleading and wastes effort in my opinion.

It's not that I support private prisons being a thing, but I've seen discussions devolve entirely to talking about private prisons instead of the entire prison system/lack of social programs.

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u/tmster7 13d ago

Yeah, the private prison problem is way overblown. Even if they were more common, the problem is on the government for making their profit incentive about maximizing the number of prisoners. If the government starts awarding contracts based on who actually does the best job at preventing recidivism, the prison companies would find a way to do that. It’s a monopsony market- the government is the only consumer of prisons. If you’re a prison company, you have no choice but to give them what they want.

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u/theninj34 12d ago

Exactly. I’m a former convict myself, and I’ve seen first hand from an inmate’s perspective that the private institutions do some things a whole hell of a lot better than public institutions. But regardless, there’s a lot more wrong being done across the board, at both public and private institutions that gets swept under the rug. Literal beatdowns by officers of inmates who have mental health problems, murders from time to time. It’s systemic and not even necessarily race-related every time.

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u/crystalistwo 13d ago

And the failure isn't entirely on their shoulders, but on the country's as well. Some people commit crime, some people are driven to it.

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u/TheBirminghamBear 13d ago

Recidivism is low in Norway, because they want the inmates to not turn to crime again and learn them useful skills and give treatment if needed.

That seems foolish, have they not tried throwing everyone into a giant churning soup of anger and brutality and mistreatment and just, praying for them?

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u/Oggie90 13d ago

While I don't have much evidence my freedom is telling me this makes more sense.

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u/filsyn 13d ago

Well, you can't have the biggest prison population in the world otherwise.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

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u/vendetta2115 13d ago

“But if you make prison too nice, then released prisoners will start committing crimes just to go back to prison!” says the imbecile, ignoring that Norway’s five-year recidivism rate is 25% and the United States’ is 55%.

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u/cciv 13d ago

The equivalent of what might be called a halfway house.

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u/fruskydekke 13d ago edited 13d ago

This is Halden, which is a regular prison for regular prisoners - and it's also worth noting that when you train to become a prison guard in this country, one of the things that's absolutely drilled into you is the mentality of "this person could be your neighbour one day - so make sure to treat them in such a way as to help them become the kind of person you want as a neighbour."

And btw, to qualify as a prison guard takes two years of post-secondary education, and they focus a lot on criminology and psychology. The field as such is known as "kriminalomsorg" in Norwegian, which doesn't have an exact equivalent in English, but means something like "criminal care," or almost like "criminal nursing" - the idea is you're looking after someone and trying to help them get better.

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u/Magnahelix 13d ago

I'll bet there are no 'for profit' prisons in Norway, either. That's a huge issue in the US. It's in their best interests to encourage recidivism and to treat inmates as animals instead of rehabilitating them.

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u/my_son_is_a_box 13d ago

If you rehabilitate a criminal, you lose a future customer.

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u/-TinyRick 13d ago

If you rehabilitate a criminal, you lose a future customer slave.

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u/snooggums 13d ago

If you end the war on drugs, you lose the biggest source of slaves.

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u/BIG_DECK_ENERGY 13d ago

Slaves didn't get charged the cost of their enslavement to be added on upon release.

Convicts do.

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u/LordCactus 13d ago

8% of all prisoners in the United States are in private prisons I think there’s a much much bigger problem than private prisons.

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u/physalisx 13d ago

Oh wow thanks for that fact. As a non American I thought it was pretty much all for-profit prisons there. I guess another thing to put in the "dumb shit constantly peddled on reddit" drawer.

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u/uv_sunset 13d ago

Yeah, a lot of misinfo on reddit.

But, when people talk about the prison industrial complex and that it's good for the US economy, they're talking about federal and state prisons.

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u/antichain 13d ago

There are only 158 private prisons in the United States. Only 8% of US prisoners are in private prisons (according to the Sentencing Project).

For-profit prisons are clearly a moral travesty, but the singular focus they get when talking about criminal justice reform is vastly overblown relative to their impact. I think it's because it's an easy, generically "anti-capitalist" meme that people parrot for upvotes.

True prison reform only starts with the abolition of for-profit prisons. Federal and state prisons are just as bad as private ones (particularly if you are a racial/ethnic minority or LGBT) and if we want to built a justice system that is just, the whole damn structure needs to be broken down entirely and replaced with something better.

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u/InertialReference 13d ago edited 13d ago

Halden prison is maximum security prison which houses both prisoners in pre-trial detention and first time convicts. This isn't a prison for well behaved individuals, and in the rare cases where an inmate is violent against staff or other inmates they are not sent elsewhere, because Halden is probably the most secure location to house them. It is true that towards the end of a prisoners sentence they are sent to more open and relaxed prisons and halfway houses. Halden does have a halfway house attached to the prison, but these images are from the prison itself.

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u/Trying2improvemyself 13d ago

You can tell that first guy grew up on the mean streets of Bergen.

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u/BlizzPenguin 13d ago

It is hard to look tough in a brightly lit room furnished by Ikea.

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u/NetDork 13d ago

But that big fucker nailed it.

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u/grimnar 13d ago

Inventory on the cells and some of the tables actually made by other prisons in Norway.

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u/Beta_Soyboy_Cuck 13d ago

The one guy whose metal band didn’t make it

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u/Doctor_WhiskyMan 13d ago

He looks like the guy I got in a fight with in Smogen, Sweden who was being a dick to some girls. Ended with his massive massive friend picking me up under the armpits and nearly throwing me in the sea, until I managed to convince him (the giant) that we were both just protecting our friends. Amicable result in the end given they all looked like they've murdered people for less

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u/Boundish91 13d ago

As a Norwegian i would like to point out that I'm more than happy to see some of my taxes go towards this cause.

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u/steinsvik 13d ago

Before this thread turns into a dumpster fire, let me just throw in that it is possible to google recidivism rates in various countries.

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u/Massive_Pressure_516 13d ago To The Stars

For the lazy:

U.S.A.: 41% of convicts go on to commit a crime within two years of release.

Socialist hellhole Norway: 20%

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u/catsambience 13d ago

Yup so only 2 out of 10 will be a repeat offender! Feels more like they experience good honest living instead of one hell hole to another hell hole. Sadly Sweden attitude is not the same and they been cutting more and more social program the last years

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u/StillestOfInsanities 13d ago

This very much.

Its odd and sad how Sweden has ever louder calls for stricter law and order based off of ”but its not working” while the social and rehabilitation programmes keep getting cut down on if not outright sunk to the bottom of a lake.

Especially compared to the rest of Scandinavia stays on the ”hey, how about this for a long term solution” that at least produces statistics that point to a certain success rate.

Interesting times to be alive…

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u/Donicle 13d ago

The contrast becomes even more baffling after five years.

USA: 79%

Norway: 25%

But those private prison shareholders don't pay themselves you know.

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u/Alagane 13d ago

Everyone harps on private prisons - which are a problem - but the issue runs much deeper than private for profit prisons. Only 8% of prisoners are in private prisons. It's the entire damn system thats broken.

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u/hsqy 13d ago

Do you have your source? No offense, but that is certainly baffling.

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u/Saith_Cassus 13d ago

Not sure where OP got it or where they got the Norway data, but here’s a study from 2012 showing a 71% recidivism rate after 5 years in US prisons across 34 states: https://bjs.ojp.gov/library/publications/recidivism-prisoners-released-34-states-2012-5-year-follow-period-2012-2017

I got there by linking through the justice department’s website, so I’d call it pretty solid data.

The data I found when googling Norway only had data for 2 years, but that rate was about 20%. Continuing to google, I’m still seeing that 20% rate for Norway, but I don’t know enough about Norwegian data to find the equivalent of a .gov site that might link to a study.

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u/Brekkjern 13d ago

I'm not sure what exact numbers to look up, but this is the Norways state statistics bureaus category on crime:

https://www.ssb.no/en/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/kriminalitet-og-rettsvesen

You might be able to find tables there if you want to look.

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u/laughter0927 13d ago

I believe I read on a post awhile back here that Norway stops tracking the data after 2 years period which is likely why there isn't any data for > 2 years. Not sure where the other user is grabbing the 25% value from. Not to mention the US number includes rearrests whereas Norway simply tracks reincarceration. Another user linked an article in another thread below https://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/29/magazine/the-radical-humaneness-of-norways-halden-prison.html.

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u/Donicle 13d ago

Source for US.)

State prisoner recidivism rates average around 68 percent for rearrests within the first three years post-release (Alper, Duros, and Markman 2018). This rate increases to 79 percent and 83 percent at five and nine years post-release, respectively (Alper, Durose, and Markman 2018).

BBC article about Norways prison system with recidivism rates mentioned.

I didn't feel like digging through official Norwegian government sites but i somewhat trust the BBC with this one.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

Norway ain't socialist. It's free market with a safety net. I swear most people on reddit thinks not America = socialist paradise.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago edited 11d ago

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u/qtzd 13d ago

I’m pretty sure that was just a joke because conservatives love to call Nordic countries “socialist hell holes”, so using their terms/phrases while showing the stats that they’re better to point out the obvious disparity.

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u/Electronic_Permit300 13d ago

WTF in NYC, SFO, London that's about $4000 a month in rent.

Also, the dude in the red shirt in the pottery class looks like he never wants to leave and I wouldn't blame him.

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u/herberstank 13d ago

He's concentrating on a way to get back into prison once they release him... perhaps a ceramic store robbery

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/orthopod 13d ago

Wondering about Andrew Brevik. There's always going to be a small percentage that are just off the deep end and not salvageable.

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u/KjellRS 12d ago

He killed 77 people, injured 319 in an act of political terrorism and still got to apply for his first release hearing after 10 years, the message is pretty clear: We have not thrown away the key. You may have given up on you, but we haven't if you're willing to work on yourself.

I doubt it'll work on Breivik, but we have been able to dig many of out some pretty deep holes of violence, organized crime, substance abuse and mental health issues. In the US my impression is that it's more like I'm a convicted felon, guess it's a life of crime for me.

That said, I would not mind if Breivik stayed behind bars forever but the legal system should not be built around most despicable crimes. In fact, the more heinous the villain the more we seem to take honor in treating them correctly. You don't deserve it, but we're not like you.

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u/DavyJonesLocker2 13d ago

Last I heard, they sent him back to prison. He tried to get early parole and was denied... hard...

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u/RunFromTheIlluminati 12d ago edited 12d ago

Someone once told me that while Norway doesn't have life sentences, they can extend sentences in pre-set blocks of time, so essentially when he's up for a mandatory parole he can be denied and extended. This can happen repeatedly, indefinitely, which it most likely will in Brevik's case. So he has a Life Sentence à la carte, so to speak.

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u/MayushiiLOL 12d ago

As long as he is considered a danger to himself/society or society to him, he will never be up for parole so it's effectively life. If they ever let him out there's an almost 100% chance someone would murder him if not for revenge then for clout. It simply isn't safe for him outside anymore.

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u/Savings-Coffee 13d ago

Read the Wikipedia section about his prison life. He’s filed multiple petitions about his prison’s barbaric conditions, like only having PlayStation games meant for kids, not having candy, a poorly decorated cell, not being able to make frozen pizzas, and guards taking too long to turn off the TV. At a recent hearing, a witness recommended that guards take him to get ice cream or to go on walks in a local forest to escape monotonous prison life.

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u/Jojje22 13d ago

Yeah he's not in that pottery class if you know what I mean. They keep him isolated, partly for his own security.

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u/CottonCitySlim 13d ago

The US constitution states the same, you are supposed to rehabilitate but then the 13 amendment happened

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u/Snoo63 13d ago

Legal slavery! Whippee! Yaay!

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u/Hob_O_Rarison 13d ago

It looks like the chief punishment in that prison is the threat of being transferred to a different prison.

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u/Scorpion1024 13d ago

The punishment is having the amenities taken away.

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u/SituationNormal1138 13d ago

Norway focuses on helping the human get through tough times so they can go back to (willingly) being a productive member of society.

In America we take the criminal and we beat the hell out of them and make them fend for their lives in the prison system. More often than not, they come out of prison a WORSE human being. (def with more mental health issues)

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u/SwampCrittr 13d ago

Just throwing my 2 cents in. In spent 6 months in Norway. The people were incredibly sweet, and the country is beautiful. But what I noticed was how happy everyone was. Just genuine contentment… I’m sure that’s painting with a broad brush, but it was a wonderful experience. Pizza is HELLA bad tho.

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u/algorhythmer 13d ago

That's what the pictures don't show you. The real punishment in this prison is that they only serve Norwegian pizza.

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u/SwampCrittr 13d ago

NOBODY would be that cruel.

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u/RealAbd121 13d ago

Cruel and unusual punishment!

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u/hannahatecats 13d ago

Much international pizza is awful. My advice: do not order pizza in Brazil. Do commit crime, that way you fit in.

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u/guiporto32 13d ago

My advice: do not order pizza in Brazil.

Unless you're in São Paulo, in which pizza is absolutely amazing. Probably due to a lot of Italian immigration.

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u/Fisefingmz 13d ago

Our pizzas are the worst. Please americans come open proper pizza businesses, you will drown in money

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u/xlaaane 13d ago

haha i like how you plead for americans to come make pizza rather than italians

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u/-Shibdib- 13d ago

NY pizza is goated. But I was in Rome in November and found a nice hole in the wall pizza place where it was definitely good... But depending on which angry Italian was working they'd either reheat it in the pizza oven or the random microwave they had. Blew my mind that they used a fricking microwave right on the front counter like it was nothing.

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u/mGawr 13d ago

Sounds like the worst tourist trap ever, can you remember in which area?

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u/-Shibdib- 13d ago

You just described all of Rome. The entire city is a tourist trap and kind of a dump imo. Was the least favorite stop in my spontaneous Europe trip and actually burnt me out to the point where I went home after.

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u/fuckmeuntilicecream 13d ago

Norway is known for being one of the safest countries in the world and is ranked as one of the most peaceful countries worldwide. The country has seen a decrease in criminal offenses over the past years, falling by around 115,000 cases during the past decade.

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u/PM-ME_YOUR-ANYTHING 13d ago

When you can live off of almost any job, combined with the fact than you basically cant live off of cash only (criminally gained cash), there is basically not alot of reasons to do something illegal.

Unless you do something in a drunken blackout psycosis, like i ALLEGDEDLY did.

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u/BlizzPenguin 13d ago

That got very specific at the end.

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u/stormhunter2 13d ago

combined with the fact than you basically cant live off of cash only (criminally gained cash),

can you clarify this?

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u/PM-ME_YOUR-ANYTHING 13d ago

Rent for example, most often cant be paid by cash.

You cant pay your mortage by cash.

And if you want to put cash into your account, you have to declare where it came from.

Each year you also have to declare if and how much cash you are going to put into your account during the year, and an estimate of how much

Also, even cars have to be declared on the tax form.

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u/stormhunter2 13d ago

ah got it. That makes sense.

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u/[deleted] 12d ago

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u/VanderGhost 13d ago

They even have a banksy? Lol

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u/mission-sleep99 13d ago

And to give you all an example even murderers can be placed here recidivism rates are just over 19% in Norway compared to just over 41% in the US 60% in Russia 49% in Mexico and many more Norway is doing it the right way and getting the best results from it

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u/Neither_Basket5973 13d ago

When you don't make surviving in prison an accomplishment in its own way I think you take away the glorification and it despite how nice it is people want to move on from it

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u/Scorpion1024 13d ago edited 13d ago

The room may not be a dungeon-but you are still confined there for the bulk of your time. You may get a room to yourself-but there is still no privacy, you are still going to be constantly monitored, it will still be searched at random. You may have access to tv, internet, and other amenities-but you only get so much access per day, per week, so you better ration it out and make the most of it or you will have a lot of time to try to fill. The food may not be leftover garbage-but you still aren’t really getting to pick what you eat, you either force down what’s offered or you just go hungry.

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u/hyzenthlay1701 13d ago

I could be wrong, but I don't think most people saying how great this looks are comparing it to a comfortable middle-class lifestyle. A disturbing percentage of the American public is one bad bill or one lost job away from living out of their car and surviving on ramen and stolen groceries, with no hope in sight for escape. Even before you hit that, people are working 3 jobs, living in dangerous neighborhoods, and don't even have time to get enough sleep, let alone make pottery. I think a lot of people living on that edge would gladly submit to searches and a strange roommate in exchange for basic amenities and a future. And it's horrifying that this is the state of things.

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u/Prestigious_Algae955 13d ago

Not quite. They promote socializing so if you come out to the public areas you get benefits like eating a nice meal or doing activites which enhances social abilities. They can do certain jobs within the prison and earn money which they can go buy «anything» they want from an in-house fully stocked supermarket. They key from norwegian prisons is that they take away your freedom to leave the facility, Not the right to be treated as a human being.

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u/controwler 13d ago

Yea it's called prison

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u/acid_bear_boy 13d ago

I'd commit so much crime in Norway

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u/okay_texas 13d ago

There are more prisons in Norway than this one, they're not all nice ones.

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u/carpenterio 13d ago

absolutely, this is a photo shoot.

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u/filthyanimalballsack 13d ago

“This was not in the brochure”

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u/axlevice 13d ago

The guy that shot 80 kids in Norway asked for a PC and PS3, then sued the government from prison.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

Imagine how good life outside of prison is in Norway.

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u/HugoZHackenbush2 13d ago

I had the pleasure of doing time in Halden when I was younger. I studied classical poetry in the Library, and got my degree.

Prison is not all bad, sometimes it has it's prose and cons...

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u/clutzycook 13d ago

Damn, that last sentence was almost criminal. Back to prison for you!

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u/JonEdwinPoquet 13d ago

Pun-ishment

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u/MonstrousVoices 13d ago

That's a damned good dad joke

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u/littletray26 13d ago

I'm doing time in Halden right now

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u/Pwnigiri 13d ago

How are you Halden up in there?

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u/Pwnigiri 13d ago

Literary the best pun I've heard all day

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u/Technical-Prior-9008 13d ago

Their reoffended ratio is very low as well

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u/Scorpion1024 13d ago

See there are these people called prison staff. They have to deal with and interact with inmates quite a lot. It’s a lot better for prison staff that inmates not be in a state of mind where they are so desperate they are ready and willing to try anything, they are dangerous enough without it. Or do you seriously think the job of prison staff is to just torment inmates to the point they try something-and the just shoot them?

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u/Massiv_v 13d ago

I’m a murderer … and also I play a mean cello !

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u/pinkpurpleyellow1 13d ago

“I’m a killer on the cello”

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u/GMane2G 13d ago

TIL Norwegian prisoner’s lives are better than my own

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u/KiwiHorror1 13d ago

and yet you guys still won't general strike because you hate each other too much

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u/Broken-robot7 13d ago

It’s almost like if you treat people like human beings there more likely to treat you like one back.

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u/cptncook101 13d ago edited 13d ago

Just go into any Reddit thread about anyone doing any crime.

The top comments are always full of people calling for the harshest and most brutal sentence possible.

You hit someone? Life in prison.

Robbing a place? Life in prison.

Defrauding someone? Life in prison.

You treated someone badly and there is video evidence? YOUR LIFE SHOULD BE FUCKED UP YOU SHOULD LOSE YOUR JOB AND FAMILY AND NEVER BE FORGIVEN YOU DESERVE TO LIVE IN THE GUTTERS FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE

There is literally nothing inbetween.

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u/Jambi1913 13d ago

I notice this a lot too. It’s very sad and says a lot about our intolerance and vindictiveness. People aren’t allowed to make mistakes, own up to them and work on becoming a better person - they are just condemned for the rest of their lives as heinous people who should never have been born.

Of course there are crimes that are very hard to forgive or see any redemption in that person - especially if they show no remorse. But that is rare. Most people in prison can be rehabilitated and stay away from crime in future if they are treated right and given hope. Extremely punitive prison systems give people very little hope for their future and treat them like dirt so they have no confidence or love for themselves either.

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u/YamInternational_Yam 13d ago

Don't leave out the calls for torture and execution.

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u/mikron2 13d ago

Also when cops shoot people “shouldn’t have been breaking the law” regardless of whether it was something as minor as shoplifting or a bullshit excuse for getting pulled over.

It’s wild to see how many people are cool with police using deadly force over any possibility of the person maybe having broken the law.

Granted they were downvoted but there were several comments in a thread about the unarmed guy the police shot in his trailer when he opened his door with the drone the police flew into his trailer in his hand saying “he shouldn’t have had that in his hand” as a valid reason for them to shoot him.

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u/LordFluffy 13d ago

One other point: Their recidivism rate is basically HALF that of the United States.

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u/_mudwizard_ 13d ago

BuT tHeN hOmElEsS pEoPlE wIlL cOmMiT cRiMeS!

So let’s treat prisoners like human beings AND tackle homelessness. One problem doesn’t cancel another one out.

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u/JimNortonAIRDISASTE2 12d ago

And if the United States were Minnesota with a strong border control policy we could do it too.

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u/raventhrowaway666 12d ago

"But where is the profit?"

  • American prison corporations

  • American politicians

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u/ItsStaaaaaaaaang 12d ago

The only thing that matters is recidivism. This method works. So does having a strong social system in general for when they get out I imagine.

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u/sharpenyourteethx 12d ago

Some people need another chance sometimes, as the daughter of a felon who did time in prison, he only wanted to feel like they belonged in the world, this warms my heart.

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u/First-Funnies 12d ago

And that is why they have low recidivism and we have high. Our prisons are little more then criminal train in ng centers where we warehouse people to disenfranchise them and exploit them heir labor for profit by corporations.

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u/moderndaymycroft 12d ago

I did a criminal justice study abroad in college [redacted] years ago in the Netherlands, including visits to multiple police and prison systems. Photo 2 gave me serious déjà vu because one of the detention centers we visited, which housed people convicted of violent crimes, felt more like a retirement community. Couches, carpeting and chairs in common areas, people came and went with relative freedom, and no one really felt unsafe. As OP said, the corrections system is viewed as a rehabilitation (“correction”) facility rather than a punitive dungeon, and their recidivism rates are consequently lower than in the US.

Fun fact: We learned that prisoners who attempt escape (most don’t) do not have additional time added to their sentence in the Dutch system. Similar to the protections against self-incrimination in the US court system, the theory is that it’s against basic human nature to voluntarily contribute to your own continued detention if an opportunity for freedom arises.

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u/hansibanzi 12d ago

I see lots of people commenting about hoping this is only for the good-behaving prisoners whose crimes were not rape, murder, or similar. Why?

In other posts (especially from the US) I see a lot of people screaming about "justice" and "punishment" when what they really want is vengeance. In my humble opinion vengeance should hold no place in the judicial system. Punishing people for the sake of making the victims feel better does not rehabilitate the wrong-doers and prepare them to be upstanding citizens later in life. Which kids have the largest probability of committing crimes later in life - those who were punished harshly for every little mistake, or those who got taught why they shouldn't repeat their mistakes?

Also, aren't you taught as children that if someone hits you on the playground, you are still in the wrong if you hit them back. "He started it" is not a good enough excuse, but still you cling to it.

This might be taking it a bit far, but in a thought up scenario where a person has murdered someone's child, the feelings of the victim's parents should NOT be a major part in deciding the punishment, although it somewhat factors into the severity of the crime as something was done to them that can never be undone. It shouldn't matter (at least not as much as it seems to do) to the left behind parents what the punishment is. No amount of punishment would bring back their lost child.

People shouldn't be imprisoned mainly to be punished, but to keep them away from other people until they can be safely returned to society. Of course, there is and should be an element of punishment to discourage people from committing crimes. However, when the crime has been done, the main focus should be on correcting the mistakes that lead up to it and try to move society in a direction that has no crime. Shouldn't that be the goal, however unachievable it might seem?

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u/Arkista_Tev 13d ago

People like to see things like this and going "ugh look at how easy they have it."

But what they just don't get is that having your freedom taken away, AT ALL, is unbelievably painful to go through. Just being incarcerated, whether in a productive and non-nightmarish prison like this, is a big deal.

People need to be honest about whether they want rehabilitation or vengeance. Whether they want less crime or if they want what we have now in places like the US, where we have literal slavery and those that profit off it convincing the rest of us that it's morally correct to perpetuate a system explicitly designed to put people back through the system.

That it's somehow okay to say that someone who went through prison "did their time" but then permanently screw them over from living a normal life, or at least making it WAY harder. Either people have been punished or they haven't. We can't have it both ways.

Alright I'm gonna shut up before I start going off about debtor's prisons and pay-to-stay.

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u/snapchillnocomment 13d ago

A few threads down, you see a post about a woman cuts off a guy in traffic and the top comment probably says:

THROW HER IN SOLITARY CONFINEMENT UNTIL HER BRAIN TURNS TO MUSH!

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u/CommentToBeDeleted 13d ago

I was talking to my little girl about what happens to "bad people". And as a kid she likes to ask lots of questions:

  • Where do they go when they do something bad?
    • They go on timeout for a while
  • What if they do something really bad?
    • They go on timeout for a really long time.
  • What do they do when they get out of timeout?
    • Weeeellllll fuck. You see honey, they don't have any money, so they have to get a job. But no one will hire them because they were in timeout for so long, which means they can't find a place to live because that costs money. So you know, they uhhh get fucked. Here have a sucker, stop asking these hard questions for daddy!
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u/RickTracee 13d ago

How do you expect people to conform to society's rules / laws when the institution/ prison they are in does not?

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u/Haramdour 13d ago

It works, their rate of recidivism is staggeringly lower than in the US and UK.

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u/Dizzy-Shape3176 13d ago

Norway is pretty sweet.

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u/cr0ft 13d ago

Recidivism in Norway compared to America is vanishingly small.

Which is what comes from actually treating people like people, and giving them a chance to straighten up and become productive members of society.

Obviously not all Norwegian prisons are like this one, but they're all very very far from the inhumane shitholes America operates, that are crimes against humanity level rape pens.

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u/Unfairly_Banned_ 13d ago

You mean psychologically abusing someone for years and then turning them out onto the street with absolutely no support system doesn't work to rehabilitate people???

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u/No-tomato-1976 13d ago

This is so humane, almost like a society that cares about the person