r/TwoXChromosomes
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae
Trans Woman
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Feb 06 '23
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I’m leaving the sub
The amount of downvotes on trans people’s posts should say it alone. I am beyond sick of being othered and antagonized in this community and different subs. I don’t see the point continuing if this is all the world has in store for me, and if the world is going to continue telling me I hurt cis women by existing. The amount of whataboutism, belittling, thinly veiled transphobia, regurgitated terf talking points, and performative ally ship in this sub is too much for me. Yes THIS sub. I see it, and just because you don’t doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’ve seen one too many comments downplay transphobia, or downright spout it being left here that I can’t continue in this community. I have seen so many posts of people complaining about trans acceptance, and so many people complaining about trans women and how they’re invading this sub when we rightfully call this shit out. It’s just gross.
The amount of pushback people here have to the slightest bit of trans acceptance is insane. Bye.
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u/Grimnoir Feb 06 '23
Maybe I don't check around this sub as often, idk. I'm also a trans woman myself and I haven't had a bad experience here. Not dismissing that you have - and I totally feel you on the pervasive feeling of this experience everywhere. I know I have felt extra unseen these last couple of days on Reddit with everyone celebrating that fuckin Hogwarts game.
It's rough trying to exist in the spaces we belong. A lot of the time even well meaning allies don't really get it. All the hugs for you. <3
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u/MikaylaNicole1 Feb 07 '23
Same experience as you. As a trans woman I've not felt ostracized by this sub. I can't say it doesn't happen, but I have never experienced it.
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u/Grimnoir Feb 07 '23
I'll say returning to this topic later and seeing some of the comments has me changing my opinions lol.
They're getting well moderated with reports (love you mods! <3) but super yikes. Definitely seeing the transphobes now.
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u/MikaylaNicole1 Feb 07 '23
Right?! I didn't realize just how many deleted comments because of hate speech had occurred. Truly sad!
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
What's worse is ALL of them show in your notifications, removed or not. I see all of them.
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u/MikaylaNicole1 Feb 07 '23
So, on that note, how bad are they? Any chance you'd be willing to send me some screenshots of some of them?
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Not really feeling like diving into my notifications again today.
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u/RunninOnMT Feb 07 '23
Re: even a lot of well meaning Allies don’t get it
This is a pretty important one to remember, I feel like sometimes we (I speak as a perhaps sometimes white passing hetero man) think having our heads in the right place is some sort of universal hall pass. It’s not. It takes effort and work too, not just a good attitude.
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u/Caboose1979 Feb 06 '23
I see you and I respect you 🏳️⚧️ if you gotta go for your own sake, do what you need to, but don't let the world keep you down, k?
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u/downlau Feb 06 '23
Yeah, I'm so sorry OP is experiencing this...being a woman on Reddit sucks sometimes, it's beyond shitty that women can't even feel comfortable in a women's interest sub.
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23
No, women feel fine here. But only if we’re the right kind
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u/howmanytomatoes Feb 07 '23
I mean, to be fair, cis women absolutely do not "feel fine" on Reddit either. There is rampant misogyny in this very sub and across the whole site.
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u/CthulhuLovesMemes Feb 07 '23
Yeah, there’s a lot of people commenting on this subreddit that hate all women actually. It’s sadly part of being a woman in general.
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u/Bekiala Feb 07 '23
I'm so sorry. It just must be so damned hard.
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Yeah, some days all I want to do is cry.
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u/Bekiala Feb 07 '23
Well and some of us (me) don't really even know how to support trans-women.
I so so hope you have and/or find a great circle where you feel supported and loved.
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23
When blatant transphobia shows up in this sub, many of the supposed allies here seems to just be gone:(
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u/mildlyhorrifying Feb 07 '23
I don't know about other people, but I don't personally go into the sub and sort by new or controversial. I don't sort comments by new or controversial either. I figure most people only see 2X content when it comes up in their feed, and downvoted/controversial posts/comments aren't going to show up for them.
So if a trans woman makes a post, and it gets downvoted by transphobes and/or receives harassing comments, I'm probably never going to see it, and that's probably the case for a lot of people.
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u/Bonezone420 Feb 06 '23
Yeah, like - I'm never one to really care about reddit points but I had a good laugh when there was a thread the other day about supporting a trans woman on this subreddit, but any posts calling out terfs for what they were, were pretty much instantly downvoted into double digit negatives within minutes.
I broadly like this subreddit, but find it cares far more about being nice than about being good - and the only time its users really push back against other women is when they're women of colour or trans women questioning their treatment within the community. And something I've noticed is that if a woman of colour, for example, uses the support tag - people are kind of free to ignore it to yell at her and condemn her and criticize her; but when it's a white woman just yelling and venting and being remarkably nasty to people offering their support? The mods just let it slide and just fukkin' delete anyone who thinks that's not cool. This sub has issues, and since I've started posting more regularly - like, the past year, basically - it's rapidly descended more and more into classic White Feminist bullshit with a side order of terfy talking points. I see way too much usage of terms like "biological women" just get accepted and it sucks to see.
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u/swearyslav Feb 06 '23
Seconded, so sorry about this :/
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23
It sucks, transphobia is sexism and should lead to a ban. It's a sub for women to offer support and vent, yet the most vulnerable women of all are open-season for hate?! Some people in this sub should be ashamed of themselves.
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u/Caboose1979 Feb 06 '23
OP: You might wanna try r/WitchesVsPatriarchy; from what I've seen they've been very supportive of trans folk.
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23
I wish more people would defend me here, rather then send me along... but thanks
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u/Bri_The_Nautilus Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
As a trans woman, respectfully, what are you on about? I've only ever seen downvote bombing, and that's only because that's the one thing you can't really moderate against. This sub has been unbelievably accepting imo, more than I could have possibly expected for a women's forum in this social climate. I'm sorry you had a bad experience and want to leave, but this tantrum on your way out is the exact opposite of helpful to the climate here.
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Feb 07 '23
[deleted]
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u/Bri_The_Nautilus Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Absolutely this. Without going into specifics, I had a post about abuse get to the front page and immediately a tsunami of misogynists and rape apologists took over the comments. It's been months and I still get notifications that someone has commented something on that post and it's all minimization of abuse. I absolutely think nearly all of the transphobia in here is from brigading/less active users and maybe also a function of OP sorting by new/controversial or something.
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u/ContemplatingFolly Feb 06 '23
I don't read the sub consistently enough that I have seen this, but, please know there is at least one person here who supports the hell out of all of you, and definitely wants y'all in this sub.
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23
Yeah it's just hard to feel it when me and other trans people are buried for defending ourselves
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u/Leeee___________1111 Feb 07 '23
cis-women here so i dont know if my vote counts but most of the trans-related posts i see here are met with positivity so im not sure i can see what you mean i am sorry that you feel that way but i know i dont mind the trans redditors and from what i see most of the women here feel the same
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u/RandomRandomPenguin Feb 06 '23
I will always defend trans folk. I don’t give a fuck about downvotes. It’s too important to speak out and stand up when we can.
We are all busy getting fucked by the patriarchy, and we should support each other in balancing the structures
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
Yeah I've been saying this on a lot of posts here and getting downvoted, this sub is awful against trans women. A cis woman said in a post that she got super suspicious of trans woman entering the bathroom when she was there, but accused me of painting her as a potential attacker when I pointed out that, as a trans woman, chances are lot bigger that I'll be the one to be attacked inside the bathroom. This sub often seems to be cis women who wants to call themselves trans allies, but not actually listen to trans people. I wanted this place to be different to the rest of reddit, but largely it is not.
Edit: trans women are women and trans men are men, sucks that this sub expresses a different sentiment.
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
I found the post you’re talking about and what got you downvotes is the commenter was a mother that became concerned about her kids being followed to the bathroom. Both men and women are equally predatory to kids. Calling her transphobic for staying in the bathroom with her kids doesn’t help.
However, that commenter has their own shortcoming (she admitted it’s because there have been some predatory individuals in the trans community) With how media/news reports some recent issues it doesn’t help ease parents.
Edit: grammar
Edit2: I see now there is a passive aggressive downvoting trans issue here. Theres no denying that’s really awful. Here’s my thing though… immediately claiming people are transphobic, after they even sided with you, doesn’t make upvoting you appealing.
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 07 '23
Her comment was ignorant and transphobic. She was transphobic for immediatly asuming I was a bigger threat than anyone else in the bathroom. It's internalized transphobia and right now you are contributing to what makes this sub unwelcoming.
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
She never said YOU were the threat
You assumed that when all that commenter mentioned was wanting to watch her kids from anyone that followed them into a public bathroom. Then you placed an emphasis on if this was you when that conversation wasn’t towards you.
(It then looked like you’d gotten offended by caring that much about how a parent is there in the bathroom with their kid? Which isn’t just a trans experience. I’ve had that happen toward me and it’s not something to care that much about. I’m glad that parent doesn’t trust me; I’m a stranger to her little kid. Just piss,shit, and leave? It was never a big deal. Saying that’s transphobic is a reach.)
Having any adult following behind a small child into an in closed space like a bathroom is something most parents would follow too and make sure the child is okay. Again, read my first comment where the media doesn’t help by reporting and skewing how much of it is within the trans community. Same can be said for how many creepy female teacher there are recently.
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u/sharedcactus2 Feb 07 '23
I mean but why comment about it here spreading the idea that trans women may be dangerous and that its ok to be afraid of someone because they are trans. That is only making the skewed perception of trans people worse. And also notice how you get upvoted and the trans girl gets downvoted... It's food for thought to say the least
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u/sharedcactus2 Feb 07 '23
Would you say it is racist to immediately hide your phone when you see a black man approach you? Would you excuse that behaviour as nonracist since everyone can steal no matter their race and they probally didn't do it because they are scared of black people, just because of how media reports on black criminals making them scared of them? If someone said that was racist. Would you downvote them for saying you said something racist?
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
No one else is bringing race into this besides you when that’s not at all what the topic was. This was talking about trans issues and what the above posters issue was with gender/sexually identify as…
I ascribe to the idea that both gender and sexuality can change or fluctuate. Also obligatory:
A person cannot change their ethnicity. So what is it you’re trying to say here yourself?
— Edit: also you can do the same and go in the posters comment history and make you’re judgment there. I did this because I never really lurk in this sub and didn’t notice until this post there’s an issue where people DO lurk but purposefully downvote trans topics.
When OPs post went up, only 2 other trans people said they experienced transphobia (the downvotes didn’t happen yet until 6 hrs after the post) this user was one of them and the only other twoxxchromosones topic was she called another woman transphobic. I thought “oh that’s where it is/that’s messed up; what was said?”
User called another person transphobic because the other woman said she didn’t trust strangers following after her little kids to a bathroom.
Also if you want some gratification to your race argument; then yeah I get followed in gas stations or stores by workers. That sucks but I also understand that after a so many robberies; especially how news outlets push these narratives one after the other. It makes people feel unsure/unsafe if I’m there or others like me. I don’t fault them for being cautious and wanting to protect themselves because of this.
Its being pragmatic because unless that persons actively getting in my face/attacking me for being where “they think I shouldn’t be” it’s just annoying. So above poster getting immediately hostile because a mom said she’s following her kids and getting aggressive just made other commenters probably downvote them…. When the mom herself wasn’t vilifying her.
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u/sharedcactus2 Feb 07 '23
It's a hypothetical to show you how your perception of minorities is bigoted, no mayter what minority you are doing this to.
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23
So instead of reading any of the following post in the thread I described… You equate ethnicity that can never be changed… to a topic of gender ?
Okay 👌🏼
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u/sharedcactus2 Feb 08 '23
Are you saying it is ok to discriminate based on gender because ir can be changed? What even is this argument lol. It is wtong to discriminate based on ethnicity or gender. Your prejudice is wrong no matter ehst minority you want to apply it to
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u/sharedcactus2 Feb 08 '23
Ok it isnt their fault obviously but still, why post this? If nothing happened then nothing happened, it is only making the broader perception of said minority worse. You shouldn't be followed around in stores and it is racist of them to assume a person is more likely to steal due to their color. It sucks that it happens and it should stop happening.
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u/hawaii_funk Feb 07 '23
there have been some predatory individuals in the trans community
What was the point of this comment? Predators aren't exclusive to the trans community.
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23
You’re right that predators are in any community and not exclusive to the trans community. I even state in this above comment men and women can be predators.
My comments point is that this specific user also brings it upon themselves by being aggressive to other users and then indulges in victimizing why people downvote them by saying it must be because they’re trans.
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23
YES THANK YOU
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23
I wonder if people here realise that they help spread sentiments that ultimately helps normalise systemic violence against us...
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23
Probably, but tbh I don’t think they care 🤷♀️
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u/GetsItAllWrong Feb 06 '23
When I first found this sub it briefly seemed different, but it's basically terf-fortress with an occasional post saying we are welcome just to then have every other post except that one be transphobic. More and more I feel pushed into only existing in trans exclusive spaces.
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u/AndyGoodw1n Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
The whole bathroom thing is why I will never use the women's bathroom ot present as a woman until I pass or get ffs.
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u/Warp-n-weft Feb 07 '23
I was about to try and defend the sub since the last post I saw about trans women was overwhelming supportive, but brigaded by downvotes….
… and then I read the comments here. Yikes.
So I will make no excuses or defense of the community except to say that there are many people here that wish support for you.
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u/Low_Relationship_289 Feb 07 '23
My main account is suspended right now because someone reported me for “violence” on a comment that said “TERFS can leave, you can stay” to someone who said TERFS were making them feel uncomfortable and unwelcome here.
So at the risk of getting suspended on this one too…TERFS can leave. You can stay. And for good measure, TERFS can eat shit.
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u/DavinaCole Feb 07 '23
Hello I am so sorry. What I have noticed as some anti trans people go on these subs to target trans people. So you know it’s not all of us, in fact it’s not the majority. I personally welcome you hear and I am sad that you had the experience you had
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u/Medysus Feb 07 '23
I commented on a trans post recently. I and the other commenters I saw seemed supportive, yet the positive comments were often downvoted. Why, people?
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
Btw I see all the all the comments made here, and the number of terfs lurking. So far been brigaded at least 3 times.
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23
Post is deep in the negatives, showing my point.
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u/Bri_The_Nautilus Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
I'm trans and I downvoted you. One of the lesbian subs had a post exactly like this a while back. It was a needlessly angry, generalized attack on the community that was met with nothing but confusion in the comments and single-digit upvotes. People either don't see what you're seeing, don't like your tone, or (in my case) both.
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u/AsphaltAdvertExec Feb 06 '23
Sadly, you are not wrong (of course).
I have struggled with this sub off and on for years. As a man I work hard to not be part of the problem and subs like this help me keep up with the general direction feminism is taking.
Part of me is glad for how angry women are finally starting to become at being treated as 4th class citizens and having their rights stripped away at an alarming fucking rate.
But then this shit happens and divides begin, gender-phobias in general are just idiotic and need to go away.
Then to top it off, the community of scared little men who are afraid of women have to flood in from their Incel-Cyberhoods and flood all the posts with down votes.
Stay strong and try not to let the mass of online assholes get you down. They down vote your posts, because they are scared of you since you have done something they could never even consider doing, asking "Who am I, exactly?" and then having an answer. These men are insecure losers who would never dare question their own masculinity because what if they found they actually like something different?
Carry on, and never stop being you. You are an inspiration to everyone who knows you in real life.
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u/eggthrowaway_irl Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Yeah, this happened to a post I made recently. Negative votes but all the comments were supportive.
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u/whereswhatwhen Feb 07 '23
Banned accounts can still vote. This sub is famous for ban-happy mods so it isn't all that surprising that the comments have become so disconnected from the votes.
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u/mariaannatrue Feb 07 '23
this sub is at best very performative in its support of trans women and at worst mask-off transphobic.
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u/Sandwidge_Broom Feb 07 '23
I’m so sorry that’s your experience in this sub. Trans women are women, flat out, and the TERFs who brigade posts made by trans women are so goddamn disheartening. Your journey in and experience in womanhood are valid.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/TwoXChromosomes-ModTeam Feb 07 '23
Your contribution has been removed because it contains hatred, bigotry, assholery, utter idiocy, misogyny, misandry, transphobia, homophobia, or otherwise disrespectful commentary.
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u/phantomixie Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
Its not just this sub either, but everywhere. I've made recent comments to r/horror and r/BobsBurgers about trans stuff and they've been downvoted on the former sub and riled up people enough to make a stupid comment in the latter. I will say that r/BobsBurgers is very trans friendly it was just a handful of ignorant comments to mine that left me feeling disheartened. There is so much misunderstanding and hate in this world.
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u/thatcmonster Feb 07 '23
As a trans man I can see it...
I also want to say that I see you OP and I'm sorry you're seeing it and experiencing it too. You're seen and get hate, and the trans men just aren't seen here at all. I once saw a post confused about why period products would be in men's rooms and one reply was, "men can take care of their partners" Not to mention all the, "if MEN could get pregnant" "If MEN were abused and raped!" comments and headlines. So...yah, the awareness around trans people here is in a pit.
I mean, the sub itself is called "XY" chromosome and it supports only a very small sliver of "womanhood" or "XY", which I guess should explain it.
There's a lot of bio-essentialism, GC and some terfy attitudes in this sub and that can negatively impact trans people a lot. Especially for people sensitive to it, it's hard not to notice it after a while. But this is a sucky part of being a trans person in Cis spaces. Things that seem normal and okay and "common knowledge" for cis people are very much NOT THAT for trans people. Once a lot of us come to realize that these gender essentialist attitudes are false, and harmful for everyone, spaces like this can feel very hostile. I'm still around because I try to differentiate, but I'd be lying if I said it never got to me ever, at all.
Not to mention, there's a lot of "conditional" acceptance, and "not you, you're a good one" sort of attitude when terf attitudes reach critical mass around here.
That's not to say there is nothing good about this sub, and we haven't seen accepting moments and support here, but there's some pretty big negatives to floating around a space that supports terfy talking points without any self awareness around it.
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u/Fun-Sheepherder-5871 Feb 07 '23
I'm so sorry that this is your experience here. I see the transphobia on this sub too and I don't think it is just trolls from elsewhere on Reddit. There are transphobic women on THIS sub.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Another great example of what I was talking about.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Yes THIS sub. I see it, and just because you don’t doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. I’ve seen one too many comments downplay transphobia
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
https://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/10t4vbf/comment/j76rgr9/?context=3
took me five minutes to find a whole tread for you :)
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u/catthatlikescartoons Feb 07 '23
i was temp banned for responding to a person telling them to stop speaking on trans issues. they were invalidating trans women by saying they "put on makeup, feminine clothes ect and think that makes them a woman" and i was the one banned. i think there is a bit of a bias here
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u/dude_who_could Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 08 '23
Whoever is trolling you is not a genuine participant in this sub. Feminism is inherently intersectional.
Anyone who isn't intersectional is faking being a feminist, is an idiot, and a bad person.
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u/SweetPeaRiaing Feb 07 '23
There are tons of TERFS in this sub.
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u/dude_who_could Feb 07 '23
And they arent real feminists
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u/SweetPeaRiaing Feb 07 '23
I would agree they aren’t real feminist, but they are active participants in this sub.
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u/dude_who_could Feb 08 '23
And trolls. You can hold no more significance than a troll to a sub you frequent.
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u/SweetPeaRiaing Feb 08 '23
So you think every terf in this sub is a troll and there is not a single regular who is a terf?
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u/dude_who_could Feb 08 '23
I'm sure there are regulars who are TERFs. Their opinions dont matter to the majority of this sub. Most of the people here know that TERFs are useless, stupid, bad people.
Of course there will be outliers. You also might want to read into how shit heads invade online spaces. There is a creator on youtube called innuendo studios with a series called the alt-right playbook and he covers it somewhere in there.
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u/SweetPeaRiaing Feb 08 '23
Their opinions don’t matter to the majority maybe, but they are pretty hurtful to trans folks like OP. I don’t think it’s helpful to argue that they aren’t “real” participants, it’s probably more helpful to just agree their opinions suck.
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u/dude_who_could Feb 08 '23
I dont recognize TERFs as real people, let alone participants lol.
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u/SweetPeaRiaing Feb 08 '23
Ok, but gaslighting OP about the frustration they are causing them isn’t the way.
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u/knocksomesense-inme Feb 07 '23
You do what’s best for you, I’m really sorry your experience here has sucked so much. There’s plenty of stuff I’ve noticed that’s borderline trans misogyny, I’m sure there’s plenty more I don’t even see. It makes me so sad. You’re valid.
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u/tapiocatsar Feb 07 '23
I’m nonbinary but femme and I get downvoted a lot
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u/Grimnoir Feb 07 '23
I had a partner in this same boat. The erasure they experienced constantly is insane.
All the hugs I can give you. If you want them. <3
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u/SweetPeaRiaing Feb 07 '23
I’m non-binary and I see it too. Tbf I don’t see a ton of outright transphobia, but I do see a ton of micro aggressions and subtle transphobia, a lot of well meaning cis people who just really miss the mark, and most unfortunately too many terfs. I think this sub has a lot of work to do when it comes to intersectional feminism. I don’t blame you for wanting to leave the sub, I have also considered it after uncomfortable interactions. You gotta do what you gotta do!
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Feb 06 '23
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u/Warp-n-weft Feb 07 '23
It has been stated multiple times that the TwoX part is not a literal requirement. The sub is about women’s issues and experiences, and any combination of chromosomes is welcome to participate as long as they are respectful and on topic.
Any issue affecting Trans women is an issue affecting women, and is perfectly relevant to the sub.
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23
Perfect example of what I mean! Like, this is so blatant, yet it has upvotes! (at the time of writing)
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Feb 06 '23
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 06 '23
I do btw, but that’s not the point. These are the exact type of comments I’m talking about. Every time without fail, when a trans woman does anything, someone says something like this.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
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u/Grimnoir Feb 07 '23
I hate to shatter your 3rd grade biology knowledge, but human chromosomes are a disaster.
There are cisgender men with XX chromosomes. There are cisgender women with XY as well. Shit, some people have other chromosomes like XXY and shit.
So yeah. You're encapsulating the exact sort of gatekeeping transphobia OP is referring to.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Grimnoir Feb 07 '23
No, I'm saying your argument is pedantic and unless you intend to have everyone submit proof of tested chromosomes to participate in this sub it's a really stupid thing to be hung up on, considering these "exceptions" you casually want to dismiss have every right to participate here. By the sub's own written rules and admission the sub name itself is essentially arbitrary.
As an aside, what a cop out to dismiss any minority that is. "Life works with the rule, not the exceptions." Gross take.
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Feb 06 '23
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Feb 06 '23
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u/astringofnumbers4082 Feb 07 '23
We are a welcoming subreddit and support the rights of all genders.
Posts are moderated for respect, equanimity, grace, and relevance.Maybe OP expected a welcoming, supportive, respectful subreddit?
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u/RandomMetalHead Feb 06 '23
Yeah this sub can feel very British at times
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u/PsychedelicCandy Feb 07 '23
I'm a cis hetero woman and I've been seeing a lot of spiritual friends who preach about embodying love and light sort of go on the anti-trans bandwagon. Like people who aren't even Trump supporting QAnon conservatives. Like I agree that maybe bondage and any inappropriate adultish stuff shouldn't be paraded in front of children (that seems to be their main argument, also the increasing rate of transitioning surgeries in younger and younger individuals). But my gut feels off when they say there are only biological men and women and treat gender dysphoria as some kind of mental illness or selfish choice of lifestyle. Especially since I had a trans roommate in a women's dorm (f to m), and I saw firsthand how frustrating it was for them to not have their personal preferences honored. I really don't understand the rainbow spectrum of sexuality, but if it's not hurting other people, why make such a big deal?
Recently I watched a YouTube of a Navajo elder talking about this subject and two-spirit people, hoping he'd validate them. But he stated that Creator only made man and woman, and you have to respect that, or something along those lines. Granted maybe he's just old so he's not as open-minded.
If it confuses people like me who are sort of outsiders on this subject, then I can only imagine how hurtful the impact is on people who are the subject of these arguments.
Sorry if anything I've said is triggering by accident, I mean well and just want to be honest about my feelings around this. I hope you find more supportive communities and people, you are worthy and deserving of love just as you are!
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23
Hey, I hope you don’t mind if I add something onto what you said (let me know if it’s not appreciated so I’ll remove) —
If you’re not First Nation, please don’t use 2S to identify yourself. Also please take into account that a majority of native elders also went through torturous, assimilation practices forcing us to forget a lot of our spiritualism and teachings. There’s also the unnatural, religiously oppressive history that has tried rewriting how NDNs view themselves and beliefs. (Not to mention NDNs aren’t a monolith; different tribes had their own ideas for things like this)
As a Choctaw, being of 2S means you’re fluid between either or both man/woman. It’s complexes aren’t something that can have itself completely described easily; it’s not something black and white. (I like to think it’s like a four square grid and while others think of it like a scale; free range)
The man/woman aspect might be how his tribe is. Or it’s due to missionary teachings that ‘corrected’ 2S for him because they didn’t like something other than man/woman identity. Unfortunately, there’s no telling which of these past things is what influenced what he said. But I could believe the latter more.
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u/PsychedelicCandy Feb 07 '23
Hey! No I actually appreciate your additional insight and I'm sure it'll be useful for others on navigating this!
Yes I think that's a probable factor, because when I Googled afterwards there seems to be a lot of resources showing affirmation and validation for two spirit individuals. So I was just a bit shocked that someone with a relatively big following on YouTube would voice the opposite.
Thank you for the additional reminders and clarification!
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23
Thank you as well.! I’m glad a lot of our nations younger generations are doing their part in reclamations for these topics. Accepting that they’ve always existed despite decades of being pushed down and pretended that they never existed or were wrong for existing.
Again there’s a number of reasons that may never be explained or is able to on this specific elder if he’s only saying male and female. I absolutely accept that to another tribes I might also be completely wrong in how I described it because of different teachings/beliefs.
You’re also right in your post too; there are still those that aren’t accepting of 2S or fluidity. Bigotry is pervasive in every community and ours isn’t an exception; even if it’s safer within tribal areas to be ftm or mtf.
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u/PsychedelicCandy Feb 07 '23
Absolutely. People who I thought were pretty open-minded and immune to media and subculture propaganda seem to be influenced as well... Like trans individuals in beauty pageants. I mean if I were a contestant and a trans woman bested me, it doesn't make me any less of a woman, so I don't see what the insecurity around that is. I can't comment on the validity of claims within sports because I'm not well read on the subject, but generally seeing right wing bigoted misogynistic (including women with internalized sexism) incel types argue about this makes me inclined to disagree with their views.
Actually, could I ask you in private messaging about a certain aspect of Native culture that New Age people seem to be promoting that feels controversial to me? I'd ask here but it's a bit off topic, or if you could point me to the appropriate subs/sources around this (if any, there probably are because it's controversial and sensitive). I'm from Asia so there aren't any Native individuals I can personally ask around me.
Doesn't have to be a long answer either, can be quite short and simple. It's alright if you don't feel comfortable too, totes understandable!
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u/Squirrall Feb 07 '23
Absolutely! I’d love to and I do feel that this is detailing the OPs post which isn’t fair either. There’s a lot of similarities between East Asian and NDN cultures. PM me when you’re able to.
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Feb 07 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Miss_Nora-Jae Trans Woman Feb 07 '23
Because it's not the truth. Want some scientific fact? You're an uneducated dimwit.https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-019-01237-z
https://whatweknow.inequality.cornell.edu/topics/lgbt-equality/what-does-the-scholarly-research-say-about-the-well-being-of-transgender-people/
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/research-on-the-transgender-brain-what-you-should-know/amp/
https://news.usc.edu/158899/transgender-research-usc-brain-gender-identity/
https://sitn.hms.harvard.edu/flash/2016/gender-lines-science-transgender-identity/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400230/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/02/200205084203.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6400230/
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1111/soin.12347?
https://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=peer+review+studies+in+trans+people&hl=en&as_sdt=0&as_vis=1&oi=scholart#d=gs_qabs&u=%23p%3Do7_AbOCEyBAJ
https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780203955055-7/de-subjugated-knowledges-introduction-transgender-studies-susan-stryker
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0272735817304208?casa_token=OzfAK3Lvw-gAAAAA:34t5hDbL6EBrDY5ZUJ7OibE8ThqiUK0N5bD2JfFnupx66JiQTnrzC3lgtzgQUAuWkGyE2RiIkA0
https://ajph.aphapublications.org/doi/abs/10.2105/AJPH.2012.300796
https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/abs/10.1089/trgh.2015.0008
https://www.nationalacademies.org/HMD/Reports/2011/The-Health-of-Lesbian-Gay-Bisexual-and-Transgender-People.aspx
https://pediatrics.aappublications.org/content/137/3/e20153223.short
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.3109/09540261.2015.1106446
http://www.rjeap.ro/files/vol6no2/RJEAP_vol_6_issue_2_2015.pdf#page=21
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0140673616006826?casa_token=c-kE6QgorpQAAAAA:YCMILZFWsWPjB8FVCjqlflf59ssfewEuUnwAw6Htj5Ov6J8MypAtWNvvtNTi4c4ng5ewfXQ9Gm8
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0277953615302185?casa_token=3iasghkXdBgAAAAA:alNcK8TFQpfL-8UF5aer-Zi48TfxzsX2_i41PCDfZ8-lPWcoJdGG4QrCDv-zvn4MYEhNOYkq32c
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u/Troonpoon2 Feb 07 '23
I don’t think you should leave the sub because if all of what your saying is true then you would have let the trolls win. This is sub can be a valuable platform not only for you but for others going through similar things.
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u/leucidity Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
Ban me if I’m tripping but I always perceived this sub as pretty much trans-inclusive since I joined. Like the latest trans related post I saw was this one which seems to be pretty universally supported. But there’s a lot of trolls who come here too and this sub gets crossposted/referenced a lot in outside communities because it’s perceived as a ~feminazi~ sub, so I’m wondering if the anti-trans sentiments you say you’ve seen are a result of mostly outsiders/lurkers being gross.
I also just did a simple search on this sub mentioning “trans” and the posts that came up seemed basically supportive as well, not trying to negate your experiences or anything but sometimes it’s good to maintain a sense of proportionality. Sometimes the negative stuff we see is a lot more impactful to us even if it’s outweighed tenfold by positivity.