r/WitchesVsPatriarchy • u/YEETERGOD2 Sapphic Witch ♀ Corsephoné-Korralyn she/they • Feb 06 '23
hot take but dude/bro isn't gender neutral. Discussion
In my opinion is patriarchal to think masculine terms are gender neutral and using it as a default term for everyone you meet is harmful.
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u/Apprehensive_Paper41 Feb 06 '23
I know a lot of queer women that or non binary folks who refer to people or themselves as “guy”. It’s interesting how we want to make these blanket rules but they don’t always apply.
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u/hazedokay Feb 06 '23
Personal example, but when I came out as trans to all my friends I immediately greenlit “dude, bro, and guy” bc it was already hard enough for everyone tripping over my new name, and we all grew up as stoners and everyone called everyone those three things so like, I didn’t wanna make people stumble and get awkward every time they opened their mouths at me.
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u/dryerfresh Feb 06 '23
My friend is non-binary trans masc and is fine with “guy.” In general though I try to stick to gender neutral terms. I am a high school teacher, so I use a lot of “y’all,” “folks,” and “students.”
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u/hazedokay Feb 06 '23
Neutral terms definitely are safest, and “folks” and “friends” is how I always refer to most people now, but at the same time I can’t argue with those same friends no longer calling me “dude” “guy” and “bro” and switching to “ma’am” and “mija”
That said, I think someone calling me “student” as a gender neutral term as a whole ass, not-in-school adult would be beyond hilarious
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u/dryerfresh Feb 06 '23
Agreed. I should start using it like that. I use funny terms for them too sometimes. Scholars, philosophers, inquisitors, hobgoblins. My 9th grade kids always love being called hobgoblins.
I use “ma’am” or “sir” for students who have a gender identity that aligns with either. If the student is non-binary, I use “doctor,” “captain,” or “general” or some other weird thing like that.
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u/dryerfresh Feb 06 '23
What is funny is I have had like two students who in high school refer to me as “Teacher” or Miss Teacher,” which I find very very weird.
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u/Lexilogical Kitchen Witch Feb 07 '23
At some point when teaching, I had to put my foot down over being called "Miss". I was like "Okay, kids, I get it, I said you could call me by my first name and that's weird, but I'm really not a Miss. I'm married, and even ignoring that, "Miss" has all these weird connotations about my martial status and age. Can we at least work in a last name here?"
Apparently most of the high school aged students had no idea that "Miss" implied both my age and martial status, and I did a quick breakdown for them on Ms, Mrs, Miss, and why I really would prefer Ms if they needed one.
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u/thefabulousbri Feb 07 '23
I'm particularly fond of "fuckers", "sluts" and of course "cheese bags" (from a post I saw weeks ago about "Stay fresh, cheese bags")
In other settings I also use "friends", "folks", "people", "losers", "weirdos", lots of options really.
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u/holybatjunk Feb 07 '23
Definitely! You greet the friend group of all genders with WHAT'S UP, SLUTS.
I also think that contextually, "what's up, my good bitches!" is gender neutral and affectionate, but I'm willing to concede that this style isn't for everyone.
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u/WanderingJude Feb 06 '23
I hate when people try to avoid using "guys" as gender neutral. I work in a male dominated industry and I wanted so badly to tell people to fuck off every time they said something like "guys and lady". Or would say guys normally but something weird like folks when they're talking to a group that includes me. Their heart was in the right place but goddammit just say guys. Anything else is awkward.
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u/Longjumping_Choice_6 Feb 07 '23
I feel the same. I’m the only girl in my generation in my family so if my parents or grandparents referred to their children/grandchildren it was always “hey guys…and girl” (somehow this is worse than “lady and gentlemen”). Or when I was the only girl at basketball camp in middle school they were teaching us strength exercises in the weight room and said “don’t overdo it to impress your girlfriend….[awkwardly looks at me]…or boyfriend.” Cue roomful of sweaty, 13 yr old male jocks guffawing and pointing at one another. Yeah, it can sometimes have the opposite effect as far as trying to be PC goes.
Personally “guys” and the like don’t bother me whatsoever. I don’t associate them with gender anymore. I’ll say stuff like “not to be that guy, but…” referring to myself. It’s like splitting hairs over “mankind” vs “humankind.” I used to get upset over that stuff way back in college but there’s other hills I’d rather die on.
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u/Holnurhed Feb 06 '23
Exactly how I feel. Also work construction. Guys and lady is more demeaning for me. It’s like lady becomes a forced afterthought. Not to mention I get called much worse throughout the day and that’s just my commute into work. I feel like “guys” is the only inclusive language that doesn’t single me out.
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u/silvurgrin Feb 07 '23
I agree. I also work in a male-dominated industry and have found it awkward to be singled out. I find “guy” is gender neutral (yeah, I know, technically it’s male-default, but it’s also what we make it to be), and I’ve never had an issue being referred to as such in a group setting.
I have insisted on ppl using Ms, though, when that comes up. Which isn’t often, but sometimes.
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u/Fianna9 Feb 06 '23
I consider “guys” as a gender neutral term for a gathering of people.
But I do try to be careful because I know not everyone agrees, but it’s just a casual term for me
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u/Arcrosis Feb 06 '23
My wife calls me dude, I call her dude also. My best friend calls me gurl, and i say the same.
Its all just words, and the best way to strip meaning and history from them is to use them outside of the intended purpose.
If everyone starts using these terms in a non gendered way, they will become non gendered.
That said, were i come from, everyone says dude(nongendered). My mum calls my sister dude. Her friends are all dude. Its more of an exclamation of, "hey, what are you doing‽"
Like "dude, wtf" but just shortened down to "dude‽"
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u/ObseleteMountain Doin' My Best Witch ⚧ Feb 06 '23
Yep. I'm nonbinary and love the terms "dude/guy". If someone is uncomfortable with me using that language towards them then I'm absolutely not going to use it, but there are a lot of folk who are okay with it. It's not fair to assert its a masculine term.
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u/n0radrenaline Feb 06 '23
Yep, another nonbinary dude/guy here. I'm not a bro, but if a friend called me their bro it would feel nice.
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u/WhatABeautifulMess Feb 06 '23
The only thing some people like more than being outraged or offended is being outraged or offended on other people’s behalf.
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u/relaxrerelapse Eclectic Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 06 '23
I feel like I have the opposite problem, I find myself using “girl” without regards to gender. Specifically if someone says something shocking I’ll go “girl omg” no matter what gender they are. I’m going to keep using dude, bro, and guys gender-neutrally, because that’s how I see them, but if someone says that they don’t want to be called that I would respect that. I just get really annoyed with the people who make it a point to not use “guys” or something gender-neutrally. i.e. “Hey guys and girl” for a group of mostly males and one female. Just makes it awkward.
Maybe we could be weird and just start using “humans” instead of dudes or bros. “Hey my humans, wassup??” Loll
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u/cuntliflower Literary Witch ♀ Feb 07 '23
I use “girl” the same way!! Specially to my bf when I have some hot tea to spill.
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u/karamobrownismydad Feb 07 '23
I use bitch in this way with my brothers and cousins lol 😫 “biiiiiiiiitch you’re not gonna believe this”
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u/Snoo30319 Feb 07 '23
My partner and I yell "BIIIIIITCH?!" across the house periodically when the other has been too quiet for too long.
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u/DooWeeWoo Feb 07 '23
Same!!! I've gone up to my husband and said "girrrrlllll listen to this" and he loves it.😂
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u/Mad_like_the_Hatter Feb 07 '23
I’m an “ooo human!” kinda human…especially when I accidentally run into humans. Which sadly happens a little too much.
However the southerner in me uses y’all for just about everything…..unless I’m the youngster in the group and then yes’um and no siree
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u/confusedredhead123 Feb 07 '23
For me guys has ALWAYS been neutral, like I would say like "the boys" instead of like "the guys". And when I'm like talking I just say like girl all the time
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u/relaxrerelapse Eclectic Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 07 '23
Same! I get that the discussion is “why is the ‘male’ version the default?” & examining our own biases, but I genuinely don’t think there are any biases. The ‘male’ versions should have been the neutral all along. Why would we use the female versions neutrally? they all have way more letters/take longer to say.
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u/DiabeticUnicorns Feb 07 '23
A group of mixed genders should just be y’all as far as I’m concerned, or really any group.
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u/pogolaugh Feb 07 '23
I don’t live in the south so I use guys. Lol, I feel more odd saying y’all.
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u/magentablue Feb 07 '23
I live in New England but work with a ton of southerners (remote work, company is based in FL). All my coworkers use y’all and I just can’t. However, instead of “hey guys” I’ve started using “hey all” lol very slight difference but it works
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u/Basic_Picture5440 Feb 07 '23
Girl is common use by military and former military in place of dude or bro.
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u/thetinybunny1 Feb 07 '23
On a previous thread about gender neutral terms of endearment to be used in the south, “friends” was brought up. I’m trying to use that more because it aligns with my beliefs better - but this Cali girl still uses dude and ‘bruh’
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u/DarkTorus Feb 06 '23
IMO the only way to get rid of gendered language is to keep using it in a gender-neutral way. Waiter, actor, host, author, usher, comedian, and poet were once all “masculine” but most people think of them as being gender-neutral now. I think we can easily do the same with dude, especially since there is no feminine version of dude.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/misyo Resting Witch Face Feb 06 '23
I'm from California- everyone is a Dude. Men, women, nonbinary, the nonexistent person I rant to when I'm by myself, my pets- literally everyone. Californians accepted the gender neutrality of the term long ago.
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u/Holnurhed Feb 06 '23
True. As a Californian everything is Dude. I’ve a female cat named Dude. And she’s been my Dude for almost 17 years.
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u/Sexy_lizard_lady Feb 06 '23
Same. I now work in a professional setting and the urge to call people “dude” is hard to resist.
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u/cmotdibblersdelights Feb 06 '23
Agreed. I no longer live in Southern California, but "dude" is so ingrained into my speech as a gender neutral term that it will forever mark me as a Californian to the amusement of everyone around me.
I call everyone and everything dude. I accidentally pulled down my freaking shower curtain and I yelled dude at it. haha
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u/PreposterousTrail Science Witch ☉⚧ they/them Feb 06 '23
As a New Yorker, I agree that dude is gender neutral. I won’t use it if someone is offended of course, but as a non-binary person I have no issue with dude, bro, etc. I call my daughters dudes as well 🤷🏻♀️
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Feb 06 '23
As a Californian of a certain age, everyone is dude. Pets are dude. Inanimate objects are referred to as, “dude” during malfunction or difficulty in operation. It is used as a statement of disbelief or exasperation. It is about the same level as shit or f*ck, just less angry, typically. One step below, “Jesus Christ” on the exasperation scale.
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Feb 06 '23
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u/Ydain Geek Witch ♀ Feb 06 '23
Yep, that sounds ridiculous. And I'm not a linguist, but isn't ette a diminutive and not a feminine word?
I don't use dudette. Nor do I use waitress, actress, stewardess, or any other ess. I don't consider the lack of that ending to imply masculinity.
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u/the_ringmasta Feb 06 '23
especially since there is no feminine version of dude.
Well, had you watched Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles as a child, you would obviously know that "dudette" exists. :)
Not that I use it. Everyone's a dude.
It's out there, though, in at least 90s pop culture.
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u/babyrabiesfatty Feb 07 '23
I am a bona fide Valley Girl and 'dudette' is totally a valid word, though 'dude' is often considered unisex in this area.
I work in healthcare with an emphasis in working with gender diverse folx.
I have had to ask if a person considers 'dude' a gendered term or not so I can use it appropriately.
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u/Complex-Pirate-4264 Feb 06 '23
I totally like that in the English language. And I think this scould maybe be for dude as well... Like this joke: "what do you call a woman that flies a plane?" "?" "a pilot". Because there is no difference. In German there is, and that makes it sound as if a woman flying a plane (Pilotin) is doing something different than a man (Pilot). The English language - the most spoken second language in the world - has evolved into a pretty gender neutral language.
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u/adrolter Feb 06 '23
In English everything just defaults to masculine, for the most part, though.
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u/Complex-Pirate-4264 Feb 06 '23
When there is no feminin counterpart I - and I think a lot of other people - would see it as gender neutral. Like nurses have always been predominantly women , and the name is the same for men, right? So why would one assume that the rest is just male?
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u/adrolter Feb 07 '23
That's true, but I feel like that's kind of an exception to the "rule"...fireman, salesman, policeman, fisherman, chairman, etc. A lot of these have thankfully fallen out of favor for gender-neutral alternatives, but some still persist in common usage.
We do also still use quite a few nouns with gendered variants too...waitress/waiter, actress/actor, seamstress/seamster (which Chrome's autocomplete doesn't even know, so "tailor", I guess?), stewardess/steward, etc.
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u/Complex-Pirate-4264 Feb 07 '23
Yes, I forgot most of them, and didn't now some... Like I thought it was always "firefighter" and "fisher" in English.
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u/adrolter Feb 07 '23
Firefighter is very common to be fair, possibly even more common than fireman these days? And German is of course way worse overall given that — as you pointed out — every verdammter thing has a masculine and feminine version lol
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u/Complex-Pirate-4264 Feb 07 '23
😂We often even have a version for "it". Verdammter (m), verdammte (f), verdamtes (it). But that wouldn't be neutral, you you usually can't use this Form for humans.
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u/adrolter Feb 07 '23
Ah right. Which reminds me, I haven't done my Duolingo yet for the day, haha
I'm a Swiss immigrant (from a young age) to the US and speak pretty decent Schweizerdeutsch, but my standard/written German is pretty rough. I'm slowly making progress on improving it, though!
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u/Complex-Pirate-4264 Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
I really can't understand Schweizerdeutsch it's like an entirely other language, lol! I tried, but especially when people don't speak very slow I'm lost.
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u/glass_star Feb 06 '23
“the only way to get rid of gendered language is to keep using it in a gender-neutral way.”
!!!!!!!!!!!
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u/crazymissdaisy87 Garden/Kitchen-Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 06 '23
I agree, many words changed meaning (like Gay used to mean something enjoyable, not homosexuality) and we can make that change happen
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u/abhainn13 Feb 07 '23
I mostly use “dude” to start sentences directed at my female friends. Like, “Dude, you would not believe what happened to me today.” But then again, “a dude” basically always refers to a man, usually a cis man. Maybe it just depends on whether it’s an interjection or a noun. I’m pro “dude” as a gender neutral interjection.
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u/safepouch ♀ ~Groovin Magic~ ♀ Feb 06 '23
Poeta in Latin is masculine, but uses the "female" declension endings with -a, -ae, etc. It's one of very few Latin nouns that behave this way. So I find its inclusion in your list especially appropriate.
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u/BageledToast Feb 06 '23
While I agree with the sentiment, part of my issue is the inequity of the origins. Most of these terms have masc roots. Look at the "gender neutral terms" that come from feminine roots and you have stuff like Bitch, pussy, c*nt, all words used as insults and usually imply weakness
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u/MethodologyQueen Feb 06 '23
Exactly! I feel like a lot of people are missing the point that the only reason those terms have come to be gender neutral is because they were originally male, which is seen as the default. There is a reason “bro” is considered gender neutral in a way that “sis” is not and it’s the patriarchy. That’s the entire point.
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u/BageledToast Feb 07 '23
Gonna start calling people sis wherever bro is appropriate
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u/MethodologyQueen Feb 07 '23
On the Scam Goddess podcast the host refers to basically any group of people as “the girlies” and I love it
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u/Next-Introduction-25 Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
I understand what you’re saying, but the problem is, we obviously can’t change the fact that these words were male gendered in the first place. I think it is easier to make a word more inclusive than it is to take a different word, and try to make it mean the same thing. “Sis” already has connotations in slang, typically a Black woman speaking to another Black woman. You can’t suddenly make it mean “bro” in the slang sense of the word. If you’re talking about a word like “fireman,” that’s different, because firefighter has always encompassed firemen.
Language evolves organically and to me, “dude” and “bro” convey personality types once thought to be only associated with men; hence why they were male-gendered in the first place. Now, we know better.
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u/Spartanfred104
Traitor ♀♂️☉⚧
Feb 06 '23
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All I can see when anyone says dude is Ed from "Good Burger singing the dude song.
🎶I'm a dude, he's a dude, she's a dude, we're all dudes yeah🎶
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u/WhatABeautifulMess Feb 06 '23
Yeah I won’t use it for people I know know because I know some hate it but dude is a vibe to me that’s not really associated with a gender. The origins of it are debated so hard to attribute it to a particular gender IMO.
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u/lonelyandsadturtle Feb 06 '23
How I grew up, everyone was dude. I still use it as a gender neutral term. Same with you guys. It's such an ingrained part of my speech that I don't even realize when I say it. If it offends someone, I will correct myself, though.
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u/SayHelloToAlison Gender Witch ♀ Feb 06 '23
Same. It is hard though. I call literally everyone dude, and honestly I call women dudes way more often than I do men just because of the people I hang around with. Still I get why some people don't like it and do my best to never use it for them.
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u/cmotdibblersdelights Feb 06 '23
Agreed. I no longer live in Southern California, but "dude" is so ingrained into my speech as a gender neutral term that it will forever mark me as a Californian to the amusement of everyone around me.
I call everyone and everything dude. I accidentally pulled down my freaking shower curtain and I yelled dude at it. haha
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u/Antique-Ad-936 Feb 06 '23
Fellow Californian here. I yell dude as an expletive too.
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u/RebaKitten Feb 06 '23
It’s a name. It’s a swear word. It’s a question. It’s a greeting. You use it when happy, disappointed or scared.
It’s Dude!
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u/cmotdibblersdelights Feb 06 '23
One of the other things that immediately marks me as California-born is saying "I know, right?" or "No, Yeah" , "Yeah, no" and "For sure!" or "Yeah no, for sure!"
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u/the_ringmasta Feb 06 '23
Honestly, I'm in the Midwest and all of those are so ingrained that I thought they were as Midwestern as "ope".
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u/cmotdibblersdelights Feb 06 '23
You guys also get "you betcha"
Written down differences between west coast and midwest accents are more subtle than picking up the cadence, rhythm, speed, and vowels of spoken language.
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u/the_ringmasta Feb 07 '23
You betcha is specifically northern Midwestern. We don't get that one much here.
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u/Antique-Ad-936 Feb 06 '23
I have been called out because I express dismay or frustration by saying "And I'm like, 'DUDE!'" I'm from the Bay Area but I live in the southeast now, and several people have said that's how they know I'm from California.
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u/Impressive_Car3232 Feb 06 '23
I never realized any of those were specific to California. I know "dude" is, of course, and I'm used to being clocked as a Californian because I use it all the time. I've never noticed whether or not my Oregonian friends use the other phrases, but I do for sure!
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u/Taminella_Grinderfal Feb 06 '23
Omg when I moved home after living in So Cal it took me quite a while to dial it back. I still use it probably more than I should, but with the variations on the inflection it’s a pretty useful word. Dude? Dude! Dude…….
I also lived in the south for a time and throw y’all and folks out there quite a bit.
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u/CognitiveTeaKettle Feb 06 '23
Even here in NY - everyone’s a dude! Maybe it’s from growing up through the 80s and 90s? I’m a dude, he’s a dude, she’s a dude, we’re all dudes!
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u/turkey_sub56 Feb 06 '23
“I’m a dude, he’s a dude, she’s a dude, we’re all dudes”-Kel. As a cis woman I love using dude as gender neutral but I can see why others might be uncomfortable.
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u/dreadpoppet Feb 06 '23
I (cisF) grew up in SoCal, raised by my dad who had been a surfer since the 60s. Everything is dude. Men? Dude. Ladies? Dude. That table I just subbed my toe on? Dude. Though I have been working on bending it towards dudette for certain folks, such as my wife (mtf). It's 30+ years of dude, but I'm trying lol.
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u/Slight_Asparagus4150 Feb 06 '23
Same, except it's the metalhead uncle in the Midwest that taught me everything can be dude. I always try to listen when people dislike being referred to as dude for whatever reason they may have. I have no problem saying, "Yeah, it's a habit, but now that I know you dislike it I will try to make sure not to use it at you."
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u/tweedyone Feb 06 '23
I honestly never viewed "Dude" as specifically masculine, and after living in CA, it's just as generic as "Hey". And I was in a coed frat, so Brother or bro was co-ed for me as well.
Same tho, if anyone expresses concern, I would try to not use it around them. I understand why people view the opposite as well.
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u/sugarmonkeywife Feb 06 '23
I grew up in NorCal in the 80s and will forever call all people dude. I also call my 70s+ in-laws you guys (spoiler alert- they are not both male) I think this may be a personal preference thing and not a micro aggression or douche at behavior.
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u/Dreem_Walker Feb 07 '23
Hot take: But you can call anyone anything as long as they're comfortable with it
You want to be called my dude? Great! You want to be called my girl? Great! You want to be called my Potato? Perfect.
You don't want to be called my dude? Great! I won't call you my dude. You don't want to be called my girl? Great! I won't call you my girl.
Patriarchal is using the "he" pronoun for everyone you don't know the gender of. Not giving your buddy a nickname that was specifically for men during the early 2000s
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u/LordoftheFuzzys Geek Witch ☉ Feb 06 '23
Hot take but telling non-binary or fem-leaning people they shouldn't be okay with being called "dude" or "bro" or that it harms them in some way is a weird stance. If you don't like it for yourself, that's completely valid, but not everyone has to subscribe to your views/opinions. I'm non-binary and pretty fem-leaning (I'm afab and haven't bothered going through the trouble of trying to present more neutral or masc) and I like being called "dude" and/or "bro". Again, that's just me. If someone asked me not to call them "dude" or "bro" I would obviously do my best to respect that, the same way I'd respect someone's pronouns or preferred name.
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u/willm1123 Feb 07 '23
This should be the top comment
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u/LordoftheFuzzys Geek Witch ☉ Feb 07 '23
Thank you, kind friend.
We each only get to decide what's best for ourselves.
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u/kissiemoose Feb 07 '23
Good take. What is your opinion on calling someone “Boss”?
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u/LordoftheFuzzys Geek Witch ☉ Feb 07 '23
As long as you're not using it in an obviously condescending/sarcastic context, I don't see why not? Anyone can be a boss, regardless of gender.
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u/pogolaugh Feb 07 '23
Words aren’t inherently anything, these are certainly commonly used as gendered but they also are being commonly used as non gendered. I often use guys as gender neutral but am conscious that some people may not see it as that. So if I feel they are uncomfortable when I use it or if they ask me not to I won’t. I don’t see what’s patriarchal about that.
At the end of the day I think it’s intent that matters. If someone calls you something you don’t like you should let them know, if they keep doing it on purpose it’s clearly their intent to offend.
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u/trippydippysnek Feb 06 '23
My male best friend in highschool used to call me bra instead of bro (because I was a girl and I gave support lol). My husband called me bro. I call everyone dude. Unless it personally offends you I just see it as a general term these days.
But I’m a stoner so….
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u/flytingnotfighting Feb 06 '23
Let’s say my husband does something SO BONEHEADED I WANT TO DIE. He then becomes SERIOUSLY, BRO?!? Which is admittedly weird
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u/Nocta_Senestra Sapphic Witch ♀ Feb 06 '23
"Dude is an universal word until you ask a heterosexual guy how many dudes he fucked"
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u/mselwin1916 Feb 06 '23
Where I come from a lot of people refer to each other as "duck" or "chicken", it's a pretty gender neutral term, but if I were to change the context and ask someone how many chickens they've fucked they'd obviously be confused, the context for things can change the meaning of the word. Of course if someone said they didn't like being called dude, or chicken, or what ever I'd respect that completely, but as a cis woman I personally like being called dude.
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u/Nocta_Senestra Sapphic Witch ♀ Feb 06 '23
Fair, but as a trans woman I would very much prefer to avoid it, and also as a French person (French is a very gendered language) I know that when you use masculine forms/words/sentences to refer to a gender neutral group, people have a group of men in mind.
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u/SeattleBrand Feb 07 '23
I was completely on the fence until this comment.
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u/Nocta_Senestra Sapphic Witch ♀ Feb 07 '23
Well to be fair as pointed out by https://old.reddit.com/r/WitchesVsPatriarchy/comments/10vco1r/hot_take_but_dudebro_isnt_gender_neutral/j7hugcp/ words make sense in a context, and yeah if you change the context you can make a word change meaning. My comment was more of a joke/catchphrase than a real argument.
But even if it can be used in a gender neutral way, dude is a gendered word, and I know (and it has been proven scientifically, I have a video in French but sadly there is no english subtitles: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=url1TFdHlSI ) that when you use a gendered term in a gender neutral way, people don't think in a gender neutral way.
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u/TongueTwistingTiger Feb 06 '23
Maybe the best recommendation is this: don't speak casually with people you aren't familiar with. I don't speak casually with people I've just met because I don't know what the rules for engagement are. That being said, if someone has a problem with the way I talk, I'm probably not going to interact with that person.
I say "bruh/dude" a lot. I'm not going to stop doing that. I'm also non-binary, and although this is to my perspective, I don't really mind whatever pronouns anyone wants to use on me. She/He/They. It's all good, and sometimes it has more to do with where someone was raised, what environment they were raised in and what culture they adhere to.
If that's the case, wouldn't it be discriminatory to restrict someone's speech in such a way?
I think my opinion on things is that it's probably not wise to form an opinion on someone's entire person based on the kind of language they use. There's room enough for everyone in this world, but there needs to be some flexibility for everyone.
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u/caustic_cactus Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
I appreciate this point of view.
I'm all for respecting people's chosen pronouns/language; but some people do seem to get quite caught up in rigid semantics, to a point that feels counterproductive to the cause. I understand why it happens, but when our society has not yet progressed past the point of such things as; outlawing abortion, actively trying to stop people from transitioning/harming them when they do, etc. getting upset over the use of the word "guys" feels like the wrong hill to die on.
From my experience, policing language in such a way is not an effective method of bringing people over to another way of thinking. We need to meet eachother where we're at in order for any real change to happen.
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u/Basic_Picture5440 Feb 07 '23
Common use makes terms gender neutral. We need something gender neutral other than human.
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u/katharsister Feb 07 '23
Everyone has their preferences. I'm a cis female and I much prefer guy or dude than lady. Lady feels more sexist to me, it's like othering. Like when I go on a construction site and they offer me a pink hard hat. No thanks.
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u/Wanda_McMimzy Feb 07 '23
Lady feels insulting to me. I guess because in my mind I hear “little lady.”
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u/Uncynical_Diogenes Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
I feel like this is one of those consent things. If you don’t want to be called that, that’s fine. But if everybody present is fine being called that, then there is no issue.
The use of base linguistic forms to refer to groups that might otherwise use a different form goes back a very long time in our shared linguistic history as Anglophones. The word “woman” adds a prefix to mean woman-person, because when it was created, “man” just meant a neutral person, much like it can in German today. Ancient Romans would call a young boy puer, and a girl was puella. Well, puella, as belied by the double L, is a diminutive from puer. Romance languages today that feature grammatical gender will use the masculine plural to refer to mixed groups — a group of boys and girls are all niños to a Spanish-speaker. So, as English speakers, we kind of have this feature coming at us from both of our language’s major sources.
The meaning of the word “dude”, which has been around for a couple hundred years — it was originally a bit insulting, like nice — has shifted dramatically, especially through the rapid cultural shifts of the last century. Dude didn’t even mean “any random male person” until the 1960’s at least, entering broader cultural use in the coming decade. Rather than seeing the impulse to call people “dude” as a tentacle of patriarchal thinking, I believe the broadening of is usage to apply to more sorts of people in ever more casual, friendly ways is a signal of quite the opposite.
We did a whole bit in a linguistic anthropology class around Dude. Its history is fascinating, even as recently as whatever changes probably exist between its usage when this was written in 1993 to today, especially the ways we’ve come to use it to blur divides and signal informality. Rather than an instance of gendering, I’m far more likely to receive the connotation that the user means me no harm and their desired register of speech is a non-threatening familiarity.
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u/stella-eurynome Feb 07 '23
Its history is fascinating,
THANK YOU, lingusitics in the house. I knew the bit about doodle/ dandy and also, not sure I skimmed this but saving for late. I am a native Californian and dude is a hella deep part of my linguistic heritage. My brain is very tired right now. But yankee doodle dandy, (macaroni as well) was not a compliment, and had queer undertoned if I am remembering correctly.
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u/Miss-Construe- Feb 06 '23 edited Feb 06 '23
For dude It depends on how you use it. "See that dude over there?" is masculine. "Dude, what's up?" Gender neutral.
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u/CapnAnonymouse Feb 06 '23
In general I agree, but also feel the reason for those terms is that there's no similarly fun/ single syllable term that's truly gender neutral, or feminine. "Sis" is too close to AAVE for my comfort (I'm very white.) Girl/ Miss/ Ma'am all have age connotations.
Someone needs to get on that.
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u/AsherTheFrost Science Witch ♂️ Feb 06 '23
We used to have peeps. Back in the before times, in the long long ago.
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u/crazymissdaisy87 Garden/Kitchen-Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 06 '23
Peeps works well in a group, but to one person it sounds odd. Like if you'd replace "seriously dude" with "seriously peep", sounds a bit off.
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u/Bunny__Vicious Feb 06 '23
I occasionally still say peeps. But as I am rabbit, I often refer to my Homo sapiens peeps as ‘hoomins’ which I realize is a specied term but at least it applies to all of them equally.
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u/MableXeno 💗✨💗 Feb 06 '23
May I suggest folks, friend[s], or all?
I just sometimes trip over my words when I'm speaking quickly. I mostly worked in customer service in the past and it was easier to have a neutral greeting for everyone that didn't need to be tailored.
"Hello, how can I help?"
"Hi friends, what can I do for you today?"
"If you folks will look over here..."
"Hi all, I'd like to let you know..."
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u/Caftancatfan Feb 06 '23
Friends sounds presumptuous to me. I wouldn’t object to it from a stranger, but I’d feel uncomfortable saying it to a stranger.
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u/Purplebunnylady Feb 06 '23
I use ‘friends’ but I’m an elementary school teacher and it’s kind of ubiquitous at that level. I try not to use it with adults. Still hunting for something better to use with groups of students. Some of my groups are ‘my favourite turkeys’ but some students don’t get that.
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u/dryerfresh Feb 06 '23
I teach high school and I use “students” or “scholars” or “philosophers, or maybe “folks.” For some classes I use “hobgoblins,” which is their favorite.
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u/robotgunk Feb 06 '23
Friends feels pretty false to me. I work with someone who says it to our volunteers, and it turns most of them off, too.
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u/Smart-Rip-3733 Feb 06 '23
No offense and I know I'm in the minority probably but "friends" makes a person sound like a kindergarten teacher and I read it as a little dishonest rather than warm.
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u/biIIyshakes ✨ poetic hobgoblin ✨ Feb 06 '23
I know it probably isn’t meant that way but it definitely reads as patronizing to me especially from strangers or acquaintances.
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u/safepouch ♀ ~Groovin Magic~ ♀ Feb 06 '23
"Friends" makes them sound like they want to sell me a magic lamp that used to have a genie in it.
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u/Beaverhausen27 Feb 06 '23
I really like it. I noticed while on a trip to the west coast that most wait staff said “hi friends can I take your order”. Being a masc woman I loved it. I didn’t get mis gendered with the over correcting omg im sorry I mean mam uncomfortable things once. I’ve since moved to the west coast and greet everyone with friend.
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u/YEETERGOD2 Sapphic Witch ♀ Corsephoné-Korralyn she/they Feb 06 '23
Plus you're forgetting about "y'all"
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u/MableXeno 💗✨💗 Feb 06 '23
Nah, I didn't forget it, it's just not my favorite and gets more comments back at me than other terms.
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u/ellathefairy Feb 06 '23
I can't do "Y'all" or "folks" - makes me feel like I'm trying to fake southern/folksiness
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u/thesnarkypotatohead Feb 06 '23
Grew up in a (almost entirely non-white, I'm not sure if that's relevant but I suspect it might be) area in northern California and everyone says y'all. Not as a gotcha, intent isn't argumentative, it's just that there are lots of folks who aren't in or from the south who grew up using it too.
I could see myself feeling very fake if I hadn't grown up using it and started as an adult, though.
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u/ellathefairy Feb 06 '23
Yeah I have never said it nor heard many people around me saying it, so it would feel similar to if I started using like "dawg" or something lol. Just awkward to the point of worrying I'm insulting someone by using THAT lol
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u/thatonewhitebitch Feb 06 '23
Y'all is perfect. Dude in my history has always been gender fluid, an maybe should be as it's more of a term determining the "cool" factor of someone or something.
Slang should evolve with society, not necessarily disappear with an evolving society.
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u/TrinketsArmsNPie Kitchen Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 06 '23
A lot gatekeeping over "y'all" right now. Not what i expect from this sub.
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u/galaxyeyes47 Feb 06 '23
Also. I used to work on a team of all men. My team lead felt bad about calling us all guys, I said it didn’t bother me.
However if he were to say the boys, I’d assume it wasn’t for me. “The boys will do it”. Ok, that’s not my task. “The guys will handle it” I can take that task.
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u/saphireblue8833 Feb 06 '23
Women refer to each other as "Dude" often, especially younger ones. Same as "you guys". The sign on the fence at my local high school (put up by students) says "Dude, pick up your trash!". I think the younger generation is already adopting it as gender neutral.
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u/Carebear_Of_Doom Feb 06 '23
I’m almost in my 40s and I say “dude” and “you guys” all the time. They’re absolutely gender fluid terms in my mind.
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u/ruetheblue Feb 06 '23
If your criticism is that it is by default masculine, it would make more sense to keep using it in a feminine or generalized context.
Femininity should not be challenged by a singular word with masculine intent.
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u/slim-shaedy Feb 07 '23
Being from California, "dude" has always been a neutral term. I've heard some people say they're comfy with "California neutral" or "California androgynous" terms (being dude and guys) since to us, it's not a gendered term and literally everyone and everything (including dogs and inanimate objects) are referred to as "dude" or "my guy".
If someone tells me that the terms I use are discomforting or dysphoric, I'll stop using them in relation to them, but it's just the way I speak tbh.
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Feb 07 '23
I think we should change the meaning of dude so it is gender neutral. Because I say it to everyone regardless of gender, and have been called it multiple times. It doesn’t bother me, and I can see why it would bother others but we’ve changed the meanings of words before, why not now?
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u/thatvixenivy Feb 06 '23
I use "dude" as more of an expletive than as a way to refer to actual people.
Like
something falls down
duuuude
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u/Temporary_Bumblebee Feb 07 '23
That’s the beauty of language: meaning evolves over time and nothing is static!
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u/alibelle_heart Science Witch ♀ Feb 07 '23
I wish this was the main take in these types of discussions. Like is it perpetuating patriarchal norms or removing the patriarchal influence to create new meaning?
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u/VNM0US Feb 06 '23
I call my girlfriends “bro” and “dude” all the time and just as commonly as “sis” “girl!” or “babe”. Our whole friend circle does. “Guys!” is also a common way of addressing the group. None of the women in my life find any of the above terms to be offensive or inappropriate, or find that any of those terms are not fit to address a woman.
Admittedly I do find OP’s take to be a bit strange, but I respect it. I don’t tend to run around calling strangers “dude” anyway.
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u/lisavollrath Artistic Alchemist ♀ Feb 06 '23
Dude, I grew up in Southern California.
Everyone is Dude. Male, female, non-binary, everyone.
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u/Imwhatswrongwithyou Feb 06 '23
I think that, like the word bitch, taking something as a woman, that was meant to cause harm to women, and using it in your power gives you power. Personally, I love calling other women “bro” because it’s ours now. We took it and there’s nothing anyone can do about it. Growing up, dude was always non-gendered. Everyone was a dude. I was never taught that only men could be a dude. My mom used to constantly tell me “I’m not you’re dude, I’m your mom” because even she wasn’t safe from it 😂.
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u/Crusty_and_Rusty Feb 07 '23
I think this might be a bit of a reach- these terms have developed a neutral meaning, particularly dude which to me is very gender neutral. I think it’s endearing tbh, and even calling people of all genders girl/bitch (non derogatory) is something I like to do and I think it’s funny.
With some things particularly with words we might look too deep into them and create problems that aren’t really there, and sometimes right wingers/mysoginists will use this as fuel to brand feminists as sensitive snowflakes who cry about everything.
There’s more serious and real things we have to focus on in terms of fighting the patriarchy- no offence.
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u/CutieShroomie Feb 06 '23
Man is also not gender neutral yet is used as "human"
Mankind... As if women are a sub species of men.
If you say "man made x" you sound normal. If you say "woman made x" you sound like you have a "strong feminism opinion" and have to point out its made by a woman.
No wonder most achievements by the human kind gets assumed to be made by men. Takes years to give any credit to women who did great things in the past. History buries us.
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u/Professional_Major75 Feb 07 '23
My understanding is that the ancient origin of the word "man" was truly gender neutral and meant person. "Wir" and "wif" were used for adult male and adult female. Overtime, "man" became gendered, coinciding with a growth in patriarchal forces. This is the reason we have words like "mankind," a vestigial bit of gender neutrality that hasn't been erased. Notice the similarity between "wife" and "wif," showing how a word originally denoting an adult female became about her connection to a "man." So I'd be equally fine with loudly reclaiming "man" as truly gender neutral per it's origins, as I would be with any other solution. "Man" was essentially stolen from our language by the patriarchy.
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u/CutieShroomie Feb 07 '23
What language would that be?
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u/Professional_Major75 Feb 07 '23
I'm not not a linguist, but if I recall correctly, some kinda Proto-Germanic language that helped give birth to what would become English.
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u/hex_em314 Feb 06 '23
I'm trying to break this habit. It's definitely leftover from my teenage years of hanging out with a lot of skaters and stoners and we just applied it to everyone. But I totally get it and am trying hard! Appreciate the reminder 🤗❤️
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u/Hellsbellsbeans Feb 06 '23
I'm in the same boat as you but with the word "guys". It was so ubiquitous as a greeting (i.e. hi guys) when I was a teen that its really stuck and I find myself having to consciously focus and unlearn it. Its nice to know someone is in this boat with me 🤗❤
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Feb 06 '23
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/ellathefairy Feb 06 '23
I'm with you on this one! I also love to tell people "I'm Not a betting man" etc. It feels like consciously breaking down the gendered connotations of nouns/pronouns, rather than sensoring myself (which to me feels like giving in to the patriarchal regime.)
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u/RustySilver42 Forest Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 06 '23
Yes. Everyone is "dude." I feel it's gender neutral because that is how I use it. HOWEVER, a very dear trans friend finds it hurtful because sometimes some jackass will tell her she's a dude. And since I can't personally be there to pop those assholes in the nose for her, the least I can do is try to be aware of my use of the word.
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u/_ilmatar_ Feb 06 '23
I've always referred to both men and women as "dude". I've also referred to women as "bro" and men as "girl".
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u/Owl-3040 Feb 07 '23
I’ll call an entire group of my woman friends, “guys” sometimes. No one has ever felt less of a woman because of it. I don’t think it’s harmful. Mostly we call ourselves “Yonis”though.
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u/CheryllLucy Feb 06 '23
I completely agree about bro, but if "dude" is a gendered term, that makes "dudette" a valid term, which it most certainly is not. There was a time (late 80s, early 90s) when there was a push to use the term "dudette" for women, but it was squashed because it is unnecessarily gendered. If a person tells me they are not OK with me using "dude" in reference to them, of course I won't (I'm not a jerk), but living through a time where I was occasionally called "dudette" has solidified "dude" as a genderless term in my mind.
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u/midwee Feb 06 '23
This is very colloquial - I grew up in California and this is just how we talk. However, if someone objects, I’m more than happy not to address that person in that manner.
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u/elsieburgers Feb 07 '23
I call everyone dude.. let's guys who I'm not interested in know they are just a friend. And most girls I hang out with are similar to me so it's not offensive. This take perplexes me
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u/MuadDib1942 Feb 06 '23
It is where I'm from. Bitch is also gender neutral. But your language rules are different by region. Pants has a different meaning depending on which side of the Atlantic you're on. Dialects spring up wherever and the language evolves. The dictionary does it's best to keep up with the changes in the oral language.
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u/uber-judge Hedge Witch ♀♂️☉⚧ Feb 06 '23
I would agree with “bro” and “guys” being micro-aggressions. But, for me dude is gender neutral. I remember once in a feminist history class the whole syllabus was sidelined for a day while we discussed Dude, Bro, and Guy. Everyone agreed that Bro and Guy were not great. But, there was no consensus on dude which may have been because the Doctor was from Southern California—she also was a peer of Angela Davis which was cool.
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u/Carebear_Of_Doom Feb 06 '23
“Guys” specifically in the plural form is the Canadian equivalent of “y’all” in my opinion. It’s just a way of addressing a group of people in a manner that’s less formal than “folks”.
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u/BosmangEdalyn Feb 06 '23
I’m from Southern California. It would be ridiculously difficult for me to take the completely neutral term “dude,” which I use alone as an expression of surprise, joy, anger, sympathy, understanding, and agreement (just to name a few) as well as to neutrally indicate a person, and try to gender it.
I called my coffee, my female cat, my husband, my daughter, and my sunglasses “dude” this morning. You’re allowed to not like it. But in some parts of the country, it’s used for EVERYTHING.
It kind of feels like trying to tell a US Southerner that they sound uneducated saying “y’all” and that they should stop. Some people will be angry you said that, some will shrug and think you’re ignorant for saying that, and over 99 percent of them aren’t going to change their language because of your opinion.
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u/lastSlutOnEarth Feb 06 '23
I'm going to disagree but not because I think that they are. My only critique is in the premise that there exists any objective meaning to words at all. Rather, I would claim that to some people it's gender neutral and to others it's not. Both are equally valid. I think what's important is to understand that language is inherently amorphous and that everyone is operating with slightly different definitions.
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u/Embarrassed-Web-5820 Feb 06 '23
I'll admit that if I'm feeling insecure at the time, dude or bro can make me pause and I wonder if they're misgendering. But otherwise I'm comfortable with them being used in a colloquial gender-neutral way.
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u/kamikazekraken Feb 06 '23
I've had this argument with my baby brother so many times. Especially after I came out as a trans woman. "Dude" makes me feel completely invalid in my progress. It makes me feel like I'm not trying hard enough in presenting fem. It makes me like I just got clocked. It makes get anxious that others see me as a boy in a dress more so than a girl.
Always the same arguments. "You never had problems with it before." Yes I did! Remember all those times where I would go non-verbal for the rest of the day? I wasn't just ridiculously stoned! Or "I call everyone dude" Well I'm saying it makes me uncomfortable and asking for you to stop using it towards me.
When I first came out, after multiple reminders, I just stopped responding to my brother if he used that term towards me, regardless of in person or through texts. I'm not as confrontational as it now a days, but I still noticably get uncomfortable when it's used towards me.
Sorry, didn't mean for this to turn into a vent. But as the old saying goes, "words have power".
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u/Velvet_moth Feb 07 '23
Oh friend I'm so sorry!! I've seen this first hand with my beautiful trans loved ones and it's always met with a weird aggressive defensive "bUt I sAy It In A gEnDeR nEuTrAl WaY!!!!" ,🤦♀️
You're valid in not accepting it.
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u/kamikazekraken Feb 07 '23
Thank you for that little comfort. Also after years of therapy and addressing all of my previously undiagnosed mental health issues have helped a lot. I'm still defensive on a lot of things, but I don't bottle my emotions at levels I used to.
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u/thisladyloveswine Feb 06 '23
My hot take: policing people’s language uphold the patriarchy more than using male terms as gender neutral. Working as a server, the amount of persnickety old ladies who would correct me when I used the term “guys” makes me want to scream.
But I will admit I am CIS, so other than the fact that my given name is Amanda I don’t know what it’s like to have a batter over my gender identity. So I will also admit that others with that experience could have much different feelings than I and they should be listened to.
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u/nixpa2 Feb 06 '23
Depends on how you grew up. Im a woman calling other women dude or bro. I call pretty much everyone bro except my own brother 😂
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u/MableXeno 💗✨💗 Feb 07 '23
"Dude" is a noun describing a man or guy. The word bro is the short form of "brother" and means a male friend. Guy is a man.
The issue at hand is that by thinking of these words as "the default" it makes the masculine use of words also the default to refer to women & children. Mankind instead of humankind. It creates the argument that men are the default and women the derivative - the imitation of the original. Please bear this in mind during discussions and use it to further examine our own biases. Thank you! 💗✨