r/lotrmemes • u/Major_Flapjacks • Jan 20 '23
Big fan of LotR movies for years and knew of him; finally read the books, and have to be honest… Other
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u/moondog548
Jan 20 '23
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1) Oldest
2) Fatherless
3) Merry
4) with Goldberry
5) Jacket: Blue
6) Boots: Yellow
7) is the Master
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u/Zellas_06 Hobbit Jan 20 '23
Feet: faster
Songs: stronger
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u/PzykoHobo Jan 20 '23 •
Hotel: Trivago
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u/Ok_Dragonfruit6718 Jan 20 '23
Faster & stronger? So he's Kanye West.
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u/swiss_sanchez Jan 20 '23
Perhaps you didn't quite clock the sheer unadulterated merriness of the fellow.
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u/ciel_lanila Jan 20 '23
He’s the metaphorical, maybe even literal, spirit of whimsy. The loose end that cannot be tied. The jovial reminder of good existing when all is bleak. Whether naturally (Old Man Willow) or supernatural (wights).
He shows that the ring has limits, but the Council reminds us that the threat isn’t only the ring. The real threat is Sauron and his forces. The fractured relations of middle earth. The ring is mostly only a symbol.
Tom Bombadil adds a lot in subtle ways. But, as the movies show, none of that is load bearing.
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u/pubichistory Jan 20 '23
Also, the sheer amount of INNER PEACE the guy radiates, to the point where the mighty evil ring that corrupts everyone through their desires is COMPLETELY powerless against him, because he is already exactly where and who he needs to be and he knows it.
I think that speaks to a lot of people, me included.
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u/NutterTV Jan 20 '23
Yeah, I’ve always imagine him as Ungoliant counterpart. Almost like a light to the darkness. The Ungoliant is the physical representation of all things evil and foul in that world. Tom, I believe, is all that is good. So much so that when given the ring he just does a little trick with it and tosses is back to Frodo. At the council they even bring him up as a possible candidate to carry the ring but Gandalf doesn’t believe him capable of taking up the task or even destroying the ring. He has no desire to rule or control and that’s the reason the ring has almost negative effect on him, but he’s also so “good” that he would just go about his day singing and walking through the forest. You would need someone who has a tiny sliver of desire to “fight and win” in order to complete the quest of the fellowship and I honestly don’t think Tom is capable not because he’s weak, but because he simply can’t destroy/break/fight etc. We see in the instances of Old Man Willow and the Barrow Wights that he literally sings them away, no fighting, no anger or malice, just “hey Old man Willow, go back to sleep!” Almost like a spell that only someone who is 100% good through and through would be able to learn/do.
If may not be confirmed or even true but I’ve always enjoyed that piece of head cannon for myself. Ungoliant’s entire desire is to destroy and control, Tom’s is to sing merry songs to his lovely Goldberry and hike through the forests enjoying the world for all it has to offer. No desires to control or even be known by most in the world. He’s as pure a being as we’ve ever seen in that world and I believe he must be a full on manifestation of all that is good in that universe whereas the Ungoliant (confirmed) is a manifestation of all that is evil and dark.
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u/I_AM_IGNIGNOTK Jan 20 '23
Tom Bombadil is the manifestation of the melody of the Music of the Ainur. Melkor sought to corrupt the music, but Tom is is like the best part of your favorite songs.
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u/NutterTV Jan 20 '23
That’s a very good analysis. And I think it would be fair to say that the Ungoliant is probably the manifestation of Melkor’s song right?
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u/I_AM_IGNIGNOTK Jan 20 '23
That’s more or less how I see it. They’re both at least KEY manifestations, because I could see the case being made for others as well.
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
Unknown. Remember that Ungoliant is out of context even for melkor-she’s so eldritch and out of place
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u/Corrupt_Conundrum27 A wizard is NEVER FRIGGIN' LATE Jan 20 '23
THE SANITY OF YOUR MOTHER *clap *clap**
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u/Turbojersey Jan 20 '23
Where is the confirmation that Ungoliant represents all that is evil and dark in the world.
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u/NutterTV Jan 20 '23
https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Ungoliant here it is within the first paragraph. I realized it’s not 100% confirmed but it is the forgoing theory and basically is confirmed in the lore because she’s not listed as an Ainur and is described as “having come from the darkness above the skies of Arda, leading many to believe that she is the incarnation of darkness or emptiness itself.” It’s not 100% (which I had recalled that it was) but it’s a pretty good theory because she sucks the light from everything and destroys everything.
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u/Turbojersey Jan 20 '23
I think she was just a spirit from the void with an insatiable hunger, and her hunger was for light. She didn't destroy everything, she really only cared about light, which is why she wanted the silmarils so badly bc they heald within them such powerful light. She didn't really seem to have an evil plot or anything honestly. She had no qualms committing any level of evil in pursuit of satisfying her hunger but she didn't seek out power or evil things. If she had found an infinite source of light to absorb forever and it her doing so had no bad effects on anyone else she would have stayed there sucking off that light source. Also Tolkien expressly states that he wasn't into symbolism and that the things he wrote were what they were. His writings about Arda were a recounting of an alternate history of our earth. They weren't "stories" so to speak to him.
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u/NutterTV Jan 20 '23
No I know what Tolkien said that’s why I said “head cannon” in my original comment. I know it’s not what Tolkien envisioned but I do enjoy viewing those two as counter parts in my own understanding of the story.
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u/SpaceLegolasElnor Elf Jan 20 '23
Yes! The ring is also perhaps a symbol of our inner negativity, and how he is immune because he is actually happy and comfortable with himself.
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u/Wool_God Jan 20 '23
You're saying we should have had a Morgan Freeman Tom Bombadil?
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u/mousela Jan 20 '23
I imagine Jack Black when I think of Tom
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u/Wool_God Jan 20 '23
When I think Jack Black I think School of Rock or Tropic Thunder
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u/mousela Jan 20 '23
Me too lol but he has very merry vibes I think. Like Year One style he would be a fun and silly, carefree Tom haha
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
Tom Bombadil is BRIAN BLESSED and I will hear no argument.
No, literally, they were thinking of casting him as Tom but decided to leave the character out.
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u/mousela Jan 21 '23
When you’re right, you’re right! That guy has some strong Tom vibes haha thanks for sharing!
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
Bro has drip, rizz, and a loving wholesome relationship with an immortal blonde babe. The ring has nothing to offer him.
In fact Bombadil has a ton of similarities to Sam-the best it can tempt him with is turning Mordor into a garden, and even then he doesn’t really succumb to it.
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u/FitzwilliamTDarcy Jan 21 '23
none of that is load bearing.
As someone who watches the films multiple x/year, and reads the books annually, I am increasingly of the view that JRRT wrote linearly and without planning/mapping everything out in advance. Yes, I know there is ample evidence to the contrary and IDGAF. The entire Tom Bombadil sequence reads like he was making it up as he went along and then realized oh shit I better get back on track.
I'm mostly kidding. Hopefully obvious. But not entirely kidding.
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u/ciel_lanila Jan 21 '23
I'd be lying if I didn't get the same vibe. The whole first book of the "six" has that feeling. How long Frodo lounged around the Shire before doing anything. Tom Bombadil. The whole nine yards.
I'm sure a literary professional can spin all of that as having some deep meaning. That doesn't mean it was intended. Death of the author and all that.
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u/LightTrack Jan 20 '23
I mean this guy could save so many but chooses to fuck off in a forest and sing stupid songs. In the real world, we have institutions for people like that.
I know Tolkien was a christian but the whole "not interfering" rhetoric gets old real fast considering it's easily argued against.
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u/j-a-w- Jan 20 '23
There are thousands of hermits, monks, nuns, and the like of all creeds who have very little contact with the outside world and whose whole life is lived out in a very interior way. Tom is a kind of hermit living out spiritual solitude. For some people this way of living is much more important than being busy and concerned with the matters of others so much so they confine themselves from the world entirely. Tom is one such person.
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u/LightTrack Jan 20 '23
Difference is that those people are just normal humans not walking gods. Their actions have no more potential than yours or mine.
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u/j-a-w- Jan 20 '23
Sure, but just because a being has more potential doesn't necessitate that their will change one way or another, especially if we assume a divine being has more agency and control over their will than a mortal.
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u/LightTrack Jan 20 '23
Not sure what you're trying to say with the latter point. Their world has elves being tortured into orcs. I can't even begin to imagine the level or corruption through pain and mind breaking to transform a being like an elf into something as fucked up as an orc.
That's a simple example. How about the kids being butchered alive while uruk-hai eat their parents next to them? Shit like that is bound to happen in that universe.
Basically it boils down to yet another "god interfering in mortal affairs" bullshit argument which is ridiculous by nature.
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u/j-a-w- Jan 20 '23
Unless I misremember, Tom is unrelated to elves or unique in regards to them. If that's correct, then comparing experiences of elves to Tom is comparing apples and oranges. It's a moot point.
It's not absurd to think that different kinds of beings live on different planes that limit shared experience between them if there exists any at all. Just take a look at the animal kingdom in our world. Some animals live on vastly different planes of existence, for example humans and fish. Humans are capable of much more experience and agency than a fish is, and I think you would agree it would be silly to think that humans are no more complex than a fish and that a fish could relate to a human.
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u/LightTrack Jan 21 '23
Tf is this argument? You're saying Tom is too stupid to understand the suffering humans are going through? He's a humanoid. His entire existence is chauvinistic. You're invoking stupidity as an excuse.
"With great power comes great responsibility." and he's the embodiment of an uncaring egotistical godlike being so it fits with the description of most gods at least.
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u/j-a-w- Jan 23 '23
Did you ever take a second and think that Tom sees a bigger picture? That your idea of the best course of action is not actually the best course of action? You're so trapped in your own worldview of what the best course of action is that you can't wrap your head around that maybe people see what's good and how to obtain it differently from you.
Tom is a fictional character though, so he is merely what his author wrote him to be. He's an idea that you don't understand, not an actual person.
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u/LightTrack Jan 23 '23
In other words: "Tom works in mysterious ways."
Get the fuck outta here with that shit. The Valar themselves intervened to destroy Sauron. I don't think Tom's dumbfuck hippie lifestyle is more important than the equivalent of Tolkien's heavenly beings themselves coming down to put an end to the evil threatening their world.
That's like if i got superpowers and decided to do nothing to help people irl.
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
Tom would lose all his “power” (though that’s hardly the right word for it) if he was to try to fight Sauron. The point of Tom is that he gives a safe place in a suddenly unsafe world, lightening the mental load of the hobbits
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u/TheRosi Jan 20 '23
It is easily argued against, but the argument is not easily won. One could say, and not without reason, that the drive to "interfere" and change the course of history, even when it's rooted in sincere and overall "good" intentions, carries a little bit of zeal and the potential of bloodshed were the needed conditions met. I believe history has proven this more than once.
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u/LightTrack Jan 21 '23
Being afraid of a butterfly effect is stupid as it assumes everything will go to shit if we don't follow a predestined horrible outcome as if destiny was real.
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u/TehPinguen Jan 20 '23
What's the point though? We know the ring has limits, Bilbo resisted its evil for 60 years. And things aren't that bleak this far from Mordor, we're in perhaps the most peaceful place in Middle Earth. If Tom were closer to Mordor where everything sucks and he gave Frodo and Sam some respite maybe that would give that message, but I don't think it says much where it is in the book.
At the end of the day, I think Tom Bombadil was just a fun idea Tolkien wanted in the book that doesn't really add much to the story. He provides a nifty extra adventure for the Hobbits on their way to Bree, and he doesn't have to mean more than that.
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
The Nazgûl are abroad. They entered the shire and chased the hobbits. Hell, the Barrowdowns are full of perils like wights.
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u/catsnpensnbooks Jan 20 '23
It wasn’t until I listened to the audiobook narrated (sung) by Andy Serkis that I understood Tom B. I don’t think Tom should be read, but listened to in song.
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u/VikRiggs Jan 20 '23
That shit is wild. I lost it when the Ents started singing.
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u/Calypsosin Jan 20 '23
While we're on Andy Serkis' narration, I get incredible chills when he reads the Rohirrim charging into battle. A lot of it is, of course, Tolkien's brilliant writing, but Serkis delivers it really well.
I've listened to the books each a few times now, and the first few times the singing and his voices for women (granted, he has a VERY deep voice) were kind of turn offs, but it's REALLY well done. Anytime I'm taking a long drive I put on one of the books to listen to.
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u/ravel67 Jan 20 '23
Listened to both Inglis and Serkis' audiobooks and tbh, didn't like Andy's Bombadil. I thought it was more shouting than singing
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u/catsnpensnbooks Jan 20 '23
I disagree, but I still think OP should try it out to find out for themselves.
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u/dirithium Jan 20 '23
because hes what everyone shall desire to be
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u/TeTrodoToxin4 Jan 20 '23
A singing hippie living with a fairy?
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
A dude with impeccable drip, a good house and good land, and an immortal blonde babe of a wife. There are worse things to be
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u/Prestigious-Eye3154 Jan 20 '23
He’s chaos personified. There’s a certain logic and rationale to Tolkien’s story telling. Then there’s Tom. Tom has no clear beginning, no real end. He’s simultaneously super powerful and useless because he’s so whimsical. He’s a giant void of chaos and singing that didn’t make it into the movie because he’s too hard to explain in that format.
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u/reaperboy09 Jan 20 '23
How can you not understand, he is the original chad…
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
I swear I'll never get used to people saying Chad and based. Just sounds so ridiculous to me, but I guess that's how you know you're getting old
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u/Kash-Acous Jan 20 '23
Same. I'm not even forty yet, but I constantly have Clint Eastwood face when dealing with the younger generation.
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
At least yeet was funny, lit was a bit strange to me but not wholly ridiculous. But based just sounds like some idiot can't form a sentence and Chad seems like an incels version of alpha male or something. Oh ya and sigma just sounds like someone has played too much overwatch or remembers their highschool history class with too much fervor.
I'm not even 30 yet.... Gonna turn into red foreman
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u/LilShaver Dúnedain Jan 20 '23
You're going to comment on the slang other people use while using the word "incel"?
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u/DeepHerting Jan 21 '23
Incels forced us to have a word for them (a word they made up, by the way). I'm not aware of anyone who wrote a "chad" manifesto before shooting up an NFT conference.
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u/Kash-Acous Jan 21 '23
I gotta admit, I do like using yeet. Makes me think of someone getting tossed off a ledge and giving a high pitched Wilhelm scream.
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u/Ken_Obi-Wan GANDALF Jan 20 '23
For me Chad is more of the opposite of Alpha male, like the real chad
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u/OmegaSTC Jan 20 '23
Still don’t know what based means
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u/oOmus Jan 20 '23
I turn 40 next month, and at my wife's birthday yesterday she commented that I have been an old man for a long time already. I've always been a huge introvert, though, so have that "Bilbo shouting for people to go away" energy. You're not alone.
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u/Daxelol Jan 20 '23
I am twenty eight.
TWENTY EIGHT. and I’m already over 90% of pop culture. I feel like I’m 50 everytime I hear “Bussis bussin in god FR bruh”
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u/Kitchen_Length_8273 Jan 20 '23
I am part of the generation that says that and I don't like it either. It just feels like the only argument is throwing random words at you.
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u/Lazar_Milgram Ent Jan 20 '23
People may think that Toms Valar is Yavanna. Those people are wrong.
Tom is maya of Nessa and Tulkas.
As such he belongs to house Chadness and has zero respect for anything that aint awesome or jolly.
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u/LordgGrass Jan 20 '23
Bro puts on the ring, takes it off, and then just hands it back to Frodo without turning invisible or even getting the lightest corruption from it.
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
Reddit is such an echo chamber that I'm sure a good amount of people on here only like him because everyone else seems to. It's like the trebuchet stuff that was going around a while ago, nobody actually enjoys trebuchets that much, they just like to be part of a group and to be part of an "inside joke".
My guess as to why a lot of people enjoy him though is because he was, self admittedly at least, ridiculously powerful but all he wanted to do was basically be a stoner and chill in his woods.
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u/Revolutionary-Ear354 Jan 20 '23
And some people won't accept that if he was in the movies, he'd either be the biggest plot hole, or called the biggest asshole for not helping the group by the internet.
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u/Algebraron Jan 20 '23
Not saying you are wrong. Being an echo chamber is kind of the point of many subreddits though. That being said: every time I read LOTR I enjoyed the f out of the Tom Bombadil chapters and so did everyone I know irl. Most of them probably never heard of Reddit either. That’s why I think your claim is not really falsifiable.
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
Oh I would assume that it's definitely the minority of people that just enjoy Tom because other people do, but I said a good amount of people because I'm sure it's more than just a handful.
I just realized that I personally am absolutely neutral about him though. Huh, I've never thought about that really. I think it's because I hate songs or poems in books as I can never understand the cadence that is supposed to be behind them, that's more frustrating to me than reading fantasy with aphantasia.
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u/lesbiansRbiggerinTX Jan 20 '23
but trebuchets are cool?
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
They're definitely cool, but for a while people on reddit somehow made them a part of their personality
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u/lesbiansRbiggerinTX Jan 20 '23
That would have been me when I was younger. I did a project on trebuchets in my middle school science class.
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
Case in point. I'm still under the opinion that a well dug tunnel is the best siege weapon, but I will admit that trebuchets are pretty dang cool
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u/MetalJunkie101 Jan 20 '23
I don't know about others, but I read LotR for the first time a few weeks ago, updating my best friend and Tolkien scholar as I progressed. We had a hell of a conversation about Tom, and I loved every bit of it.
I was honestly surprised to see so much hate for him when I got on reddit.
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
I don't think I've ever seen hate for him, I just see people saying that he has nothing to add to the story so it wouldn't make sense for him to be in the movies.
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u/MetalJunkie101 Jan 20 '23
Oh, I definitely don't think he belongs in the movies. The average viewer is confused enough with, "why didn't eagles fly Frodo to Mordor???"
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
Ya then I don't think I've ever seen hate for him, and if you look at my profile you will see that I'm on reddit an unhealthy amount
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u/MetalJunkie101 Jan 20 '23
These are just a few from the threads I've come across today.
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
Ohhhh in the comments, I thought we were talking about posts for some reason. Ya there's all sorts of trolls and ridiculous people in reddit comments
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u/Willpower2000 Feanor Silmarilli Jan 20 '23
I've seen plenty of people hate Tom - but also, as you said, many who (wrongly) say he is pointless.
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u/jaleneropepper Jan 20 '23
I don't think I've ever seen hate for him
It's me, I hate him.
More accurately, I hate his place in the story. He's a good person for saving the Hobbits twice and his whimsical demeanor is fine even if it clashes with the overall tone of the story. What really bothers me that he is literally immune to the Ring's power but gets quickly dismissed as a potential helper on their quest. I'm aware of the explanations given but am not satisfied by them. Tolkien seemingly sidesteps the moral implications of him staying neutral by writing him off as an airhead that can't understand their quest despite showing us he is intelligent and clearly capable of this.
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u/the-bladed-one Jan 21 '23
I think it’s pretty justifiable-he is only immune to the ring because it has no power over him, yet he has no power over it. To Tom, the ring is only a trinket, and he is forgetful and easily mislays things.
There’s also no indication that Tom can fight, and we never see him against servants of Sauron-the barrow wights actually fought against the witch king and Old Man Willow is a malevolent tree spirit or possibly a huorn.
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u/superVanV1 Jan 20 '23
HEy, I found Trebuchets cool long before reddit.
I'm just a nerd whose fond of medieval siege weaponry1
u/usumoio Jan 20 '23
The Wolf’s Head would like to have a word with you about this and it plans to send its message from 300 meters away.
Now please stand still for the next 3 months while we construct it.
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u/OlTommyBombadil Jan 20 '23 edited Jan 20 '23
Gonna disagree with you about the Reddit part, this sub has some intense LOTR fans, and LOTR predates the fuck out of Reddit. Tom was still a popular character in this world before Reddit.
Are there people as you described? Sure. Who cares. There are a fuckton of folks like myself who genuinely enjoyed the character and the scenes involving him.
EDIT: my post sounds more confrontational than intended, friend
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
That's why I have two paragraphs, one describing people that do that, and one describing why I think that people who don't do that enjoy him.
I swear I must be terrible at explaining things because somehow people don't understand what I'm saying like this so often. Or maybe some redditors just see red about one thing I said, ignore everything else in the comment, and don't look at the other comments in the thread that address exactly what they're bringing up. Or maybe people get emotional over the tone I use. Or maybe all 3 of the above.
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u/TehPinguen Jan 20 '23
Don't worry, this is Reddit, people are just completely incapable of understanding things.
Also, on this sub in particular I think you have a lot of people who think they are smarter than they are because they know of a lot of trivia, and that leads to a lot of confident misreading of what people say
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u/kudichangedlives Jan 20 '23
So you understood what I was saying, right?
And if so, did their response make as little sense to you as it did to me?
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u/TehPinguen Jan 20 '23
I got what you were saying, to me it seemed a lot of people just didn't read the second half of your comment
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u/JudgmentMoto Jan 20 '23
People talk about him to show that they have read the books and wanna brag about it
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u/Ken_Obi-Wan GANDALF Jan 20 '23
If you had read the book you wouldn't talk about him this way ;)
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u/JudgmentMoto Jan 20 '23
I have and I don't really understand the hype about him 🤷♂️
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u/anduinstormcrowe Jan 20 '23
I genuinely have no idea why people like him so much, but to each their own 🤷🏻♀️ every time i get to his chapters, i sigh and speed read/skim read.
Though at this point I could probably just skip em 😅
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u/Spooky-FoxMulder Jan 20 '23
100% this. It’s just become a dumb gatekeeping meme that’s overdone. It’s saying “I’ve read the books!” without saying it.
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u/TehPinguen Jan 20 '23
It's this 100%. I'm sure people like Tom Bombadil, but the amount of love he gets reads as a meme character, until you realize these people are 100% serious and will fight you over it. That's when you realize it's all about showing off not only that you have read the books, but that you think the books are superior. Tom is a stand-in for all of the differences between the books and movies.
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u/TurboTitan92 Jan 20 '23
He’s the Oldest and Fatherless: the most heinous being to walk middle earth.
Seriously, this changed my entire view of merry old Tom.
Even Treebeard says, “I do not doubt there is some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north; and bad memories are handed down.” He talks of the evil pervading trees that once came from under the mountains spreading across the land, then confirms it’s like the Old Forest when Pippin asks.
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u/TehPinguen Jan 20 '23
That's actually fascinating, especially the theory in the comments that Tom is meant to be Death, the gift given to men
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u/Myfartsonthefloor Jan 20 '23
The single person in middle earth who seems to be immune to and more powerful than it all (spreads hands out wide looking around)?
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u/Nytloc Jan 20 '23
Tom is referred to as the oldest being in Middle Earth. Morgoth, Sauron’s original master, was the first beings of the angelic beings to descend upon the planet. And in Tom’s own words, “he knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless – before the Dark Lord came from Outside.” So imagine if man went to the moon and there was a giddy, middle-aged man in a blue coat and yellow boots dancing around and talking in rhymes on the surface. That’s the absurdity that is Tom Bombadil. He’s awesome because of how Mythically out of place he is in the structure and hierarchy of the story but he’s just there to humorous effect.
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u/bjornartl Jan 20 '23 edited Jan 20 '23
He's very relevant to the ideas of the Overton window in Middle Earth and the flawed perception of grounded centrists.
By most Middle Earth standards, the Hobbits are on the far end of the spectrum of not caring about wealth and riches. They're cheerful and value non productive things like song, dance, relaxation, spend time with friends, enjoy life basically, and they're borderline pacifists and so forth.. And its this "purity", their low sense of greed, that makes them affected slightly less than other races.
Bombadil represents an abstract and even more extreme version of that. He has no dependency on anything for survival and that makes him a literal embodiment or all the good qualities we see in the Hobbits. As such, the ring does not affect him, not just less like the hobbits, but none at all. But alas, it also makes him void of any motivation or determination to destroy the ring.
This shows that the Hobbits aren't a contrast to the other mortals. It shows that there is a balance, and the Hobbits ARE that balance. The Hobbits do depend on food, shelter and material goods. And on political stability and safety from war etc. They aren't lazy or pacifists to the point where it becomes their demise. But they produce, not just what they absolutely need but also things they want for leisure like tobacco. They put a lot of time and effort into making fine furniture and tools, and they do cut down trees to make them.
But they keep that sustainable, rather than pursuing perpetual growth. They don't need to continuesly increase production and profit margins. They don't want to hurt others by attacking them to steal or control them, or destroy other people's ability to produce the same thing, to increase the dependency others have on them. Which is exactly what the industrialized evil forces are doing.
Unfortunately, cutting Bombadil's existence in the movies kinda rinses it from its original anti capitalist/corporate message.
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u/Quadritzel Human Jan 20 '23
Tolkien stated himself, that the book isn't allegory.
EDIT: I don't want to come of rude, but just found out I, in fact, do, sorry about that!1
u/bjornartl Jan 20 '23
He's also talked a lot about his distaste for industrialisation and how he thinks the war machine is connected to it. It was released shortly after WW2 in which he fought.
Claiming that fiction isn't an allegory to anything specific is more the rule than the exception to the rule tho. This will unfortunately have to be a bit of a read.
An example is Bert and Ernie. Their creator who himself is gay, has said they're inspired by his own life. Couples only ever being portrayed as two different genders of the same race isn't very good when it comes to stigma and anything beyond the 'normal'. To think he wasn't aware and conscious about that would be fairly naive. But when asked directly if they are gay, he said they're not cause they're Muppets and don't have a sexuality. This is despite the fact that Kermit is in a admitted straight romantic relationship with Ms Piggy (pig also being a negative stereotype towards women that's turned around with her being admired by the main character and being a literal pig is never something anyone sees as a negative trait in the show).
Now the reason for that might be many things. Perhaps partially because the mere existence of gay characters in children's shows often gets accused by bigots of pushing sexuality on gay people, and by saying this rather than saying yes, he's pushing the burden of implementing an idea of sexuality in a kids show back onto the accusers. But another reason is probably that by being non specific you can champion more causes at the same time. It helps normalize the idea that two men might be living together in a romantic relationship but also champion the fact that two straight guys could have a very close friendship and intertwined lifestyles without coming across as gay when they're not. Not that there's anything wrong with being gay, but it could be unpleasant to be identify differently to how you yourself identify. Maybe also the vagueness helps to introduce the idea to people who would otherwise instantly reject it, and they are the ones who need the most to get more used to the fact that gay people do actually exist and that it's not so uncommon.
Similarly, it's fairly widely accepted that X-Men is a strong analogy for the social struggles that gay people have gone through. But at the same time, by being non specific, this could just as well describe the struggles trans people have, or any other people who feel alienated by society, even tho that's not what the creators had in mind at the time.
Similarly, it allows the focus to be on the actions rather than the group. In Star Wars, the Imperial forces are heavily inspired by the Nazi regime. But by not directly saying "yes they are Nazis and we are the good guys" it's a lot more flexible. When we are the ones doing imperial acts towards smaller nations with less leverage, it could just as easily apply to us. An even better example might be many of the actions that Israel has taken against Palestinians. Since Jews were a victim of the Nazis, it would give them more of an excuse of being the good guy in these situations if it's specifically stated that the Imperials ARE Nazis rather than just being the inspiration for them.
Or course, i reckon a lot of people are going to disagree with my views on all these subjects. And that's kinda the point. It's open for interpretation and this is MY interpretation. I can list reasons why I see it like that, but the point is that you're going to have to think for yourself and draw your own conclusions, otherwise the message of the story would be useless to begin with. If YOU wanna think that Bombadil's presence in the book is totally random and completely irrelevant to the rest of the story, or even that the entire story itself has no point or morale to it, then so be it.
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u/LilShaver Dúnedain Jan 20 '23
Bombadil is a mystery of Middle-earth. He simply exists. Enjoy him for what he is. The Watcher in the Water is the same - a mystery of Middle-earth.
And there are not many things like that in Middle-earth. Almost everything else From Anduril to Glamdring and Sting has a backstory, including the Phial of Galadriel, Lembas, and so forth.
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u/SlightDesigner8214 Jan 20 '23
This is the best 10 minute explanation I’ve listened to. In deep geek.
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u/HomieScaringMusic Jan 20 '23
He’s relatable. I see myself in him.
But seriously it’s kinda fun that he’s just doing side quests in his own little fairytale Adventureland while the rest of the world has to make sense and deal with real problems. And then there’s just Tom in his weird little bubble taming badgermen with music.
And it’s fun that literally nobody in universe knows what his deal is because he doesn’t fit into the cosmology. He’s like the good version of the nameless world-gnawers. Or like a lovecraftian abomination except instead of an abomination he’s just a totally chill dude.
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u/Hungry_Nectarine_347 Jan 20 '23
I’m gonna be honest. When I first read the books I felt the same way. I felt that way really about everything leading up to Rivendell.
But since I read LotR some six or seven years ago, I’ve found that there’s something I deeply love and enjoy about Tom Bombadil. He’s strange and awfully merry. He really sticks out when compared to pretty much every other character with any sort of power. But I think that speaks to what Tom is sorta supposed to be. Tom is the fulfillment of goodness. Just as the Shire is the most ideal of all goodness when it comes to the land and world, Tom is so completely aware of the greatness of good and its power over evil that he has no worry or concern. Almost every character in the series has a moment where they look and see grimness in the future where it seems as if evil will prevail. Even though time and time again evil is proven powerless in the face of good. This actually is a point that a lot of people don’t understand with LotR when they get mad that the “good guys always win.” Yeah, duh, that’s probably the most central theme of the whole story. And Tom fully lives in that and understands it. It’s why no evil bothers him because he fully understands and lives in goodness. And I think that’s why in retrospect I really love Tom Bombadil and why a lot of other people do too
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u/hellofmyowncreation Jan 20 '23
It’s his ability to not give a fuck, and his existence as Tolkien tacitly saying troll logic exists in Middle Earth, and his name is Tom.
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u/Metatron_Tumultum Jan 20 '23
I never liked that part. The book comes to a grinding halt so they can hang out with the guy. Peter Jackson was right to leave it out.
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u/jpeck89 Jan 20 '23
It's pretty simple, Tom is oldest, that's what he is.
I think it's the mystery that surrounds him. Who else casually puts The One Ring on his finger? Who else commands powerful undead warriors to just fuck off? Who else believably declares he was here before the dark lord came over?
He's this extremely powerful being who just wants to romp through the woods, and hang out with his supermodel wife.
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u/TKAPublishing Jan 20 '23
HEY DOL MERRY DOL RING A DONG DING
MERRY OLD TOMBADOM COULD PUT ON THE RING
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u/My41stThrowaway Jan 20 '23
He's a shitty useless character that adds nothing to the story. I read the books long before the movie came out, and had to skim over his chapter. Especially his stupid fucking songs.
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u/OmegaSTC Jan 20 '23
Bombadill is the yardstick people use to measure their obsession for Tolkien. It’s all for show
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u/marcelopvf Jan 20 '23
Do you known when you remember something from your past and cringe?
I bet Tolkien would do the same today with Tom.
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u/Monutan Jan 20 '23
I've seen three of these posts and reas through all the comments and I #still don't know who Tom Bombadill is
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u/Tortoise_Foots Jan 20 '23
I've been reading the same section about Tom Bombadill for a year now because I keep on not reading it and having to go back to remember what was happening
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u/Voidgazer24 Jan 20 '23
Look man, i am only here for Grond memes.
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u/Amish_Warl0rd Jan 20 '23
TLDR
He’s a jolly fellow that’s ridiculously powerful to the point where Tolkien had to explain why he couldn’t take the ring, or just destroy it himself. If he was in the movies, people would be pointing at him as a major plot hole instead of the eagles.
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u/Wyatt1973 Jan 20 '23
Some say that he is Tolkien inserting himself into the story. That makes sense as he is supposedly MUCH more powerful than Sauron. This is probably because he is beyond Sauron’s reach as the writer of the novel. Honestly, he plays an extremely minor role. According to Wikipedia he is supposed to be a spirit of “place” which would also remain unchanged if the ring had fallen into Sauron’s hands. As long as the “place” existed, so would Bombadil. That also made the ring, itself, a very trivial thing to Bombadil supported by Gandalf saying “He’d probably lose it.”
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u/OlTommyBombadil Jan 20 '23
He’s an interesting character, and unique
As you can see by my name, I am fond of ol Tommy
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u/Thelastknownking Return of the fool Jan 20 '23
He put on the fucking one ring and didn't even react to it.
The elves decided that they couldn't trust him with the ring because he would forget about it and lose it.
What more do you need?
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u/D3rWeisseTeufel Jan 20 '23
I mean the guy puts on the ring, it does nothing to him and you never hear about for the rest of the trilogy. That's a mystery and a half!
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u/hellofmyowncreation Jan 20 '23
It’s his ability to not give a fuck, and his existence as Tolkien tacitly saying troll logic exists in Middle Earth, and his name is Tom.
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u/BoxedStars Jan 21 '23
We live in the meme generation, and Tom Bombadil is the second biggest meme character next to Grond. Embrace the memes, and then you will understand.
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u/eneko8 Jan 21 '23
He put the ring on to no effect... Didn't care to keep it either
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u/haikusbot Jan 21 '23
He put the ring on
To no effect... Didn't care
To keep it either
- eneko8
I detect haikus. And sometimes, successfully. Learn more about me.
Opt out of replies: "haikusbot opt out" | Delete my comment: "haikusbot delete"
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u/Irishbangers14 Jan 21 '23
You have no business being a fan if you can’t appreciate Tom for the greatness he is.
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u/Mr_Bombadil_ Jan 22 '23
I think Tom Bombadil is the shit, he was a reminder to find the stoke in life for me at a time when it was hard to do
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u/Dicktatorguy Jan 23 '23
It's mostly that he's random and quirky. He seems very out of place in the story. He adds very little to the plot and what he does add is easily explained in other ways, hence why he was cut in the movie. He is more of a world building piece than anything else. This fact is also frustrating because it opens many questions that are simultaneously left in answered. But at the same time he is something you only know about if you've read the books or have been talking to people who read the books. He is sort of an inside joke thing. It's like you're part of a special club. It easily weeds the movie readers out from the book readers. Not that we don't want people to appreciate all forms of Tolkien, it's just that book readers feel like more dedicated and fanatical fans.
And also just that Tom Bombadil is very strange and very happy with silly songs.
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u/NostraDismater Jan 24 '23
you don’t have to understand, if u get it u get it. Personally I want just a little short of him and his river wife animated or something.
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u/BeautifulExtension63 Jan 20 '23
What's to understand? He's a merry fellow!