r/technology • u/upyoars • Feb 07 '23
Prices for Used Teslas and Other EVs Are Dropping More Than Gas-Powered Cars Transportation
https://money.com/used-tesla-prices-gas-powered-cars/198
u/timelessblur Feb 07 '23
No shit the drop a lot. Tesla did a massive price drop mixed with tax credits. That is going to cause used to drop. Why pay new car prices for a used car.
The 2021 Mach E prices have not dropped as much because guess what they all were bought new for a little lest than what you can by a 2023 Mach E for. Take out the instant 7500 hit from the tax credit and they are holding up really well.
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u/kveggie1 Feb 07 '23
Used car dealers are scrambling. One about two miles down the road from me has 15 Teslas in the lot......
This combined with a downward trend of ICE cars.
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u/HighClassProletariat Feb 07 '23
Yeah they're about to take a fat loss on those. Lots of used car dealers are about to be caught with their pants down.
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u/jenkag Feb 07 '23
No one ever thinks their particular gravy train will ever end.
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u/AbidanYre Feb 07 '23
My beanie babies are going to rally any day now.
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u/ghandi3737 Feb 07 '23
Have you seen the new squishy animal pillows?
Everyone of them is totally unique and collectable.
I can sell you some really cheap.
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Feb 07 '23
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u/Zip95014 Feb 07 '23
Tesla drops a good self drive and that guy has 15 taxis working for him.
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u/Ok-Friendship7984 Feb 07 '23
Sure, they should have that ready in the next three years! /s
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u/Euler007 Feb 07 '23
Prices were dropping in early November at auction, well before the cuts. I think you're confusing the cause and effect.
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u/thatfreshjive Feb 07 '23
Money.com? How can you not respect a blog, with such an expensive domain?
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u/leto78 Feb 07 '23
Used car prices are affected by new car prices and availability. If Tesla is pumping a lot of new cars into the market, and they have dropped prices, on top of the Federal incentives, it would be ridiculous to think that used car prices would keep their value.
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u/BeKind_BeTheChange Feb 07 '23
I would not own an electric car that is out of warranty. No way.
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u/RockitDanger Feb 07 '23
My fear is manufactured obsolescence and the eventuality of cars becoming subscription models like smartphones
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u/thetimechaser Feb 07 '23
Failing batteries, changes in charging standards, 3rd party shops refusal to work on specific EVs. EVs being retroactively banned from parking in buildings due to fires.
Yeah no thanks. I'll stick with hybrids until we get some uniform consensus on EV infrastructure and there's actually enough of it to go around. Until then its just hype.
Oh and skip PHEVs. It's a worst of both worlds band-aid tech.
I'm personally rooting for hydrogen cell tech but would take full EV if everyone gets on the same page.
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u/SeaworthinessLeft88 Feb 07 '23
Wow, it’s impressive that nearly everything in your post is a misconception about EVs. Battery failure is pretty rare, and most (if not all) automakers offer a 100k mile warranty on the traction battery, with an expectation that it will last beyond that. There really aren’t many changes to charging standards. J1772 for L1/L2, which most EV users use has been around and unchanged since 2009. CCS has pretty much been universally accepted as the DCFC standard. Tesla does and has always done their own thing, but don’t mistake that for a lack of consensus in the rest of the industry. Everyone else has already agreed that CCS is the fast charging standard moving forward.
The only standard that’s been more or less abandoned is chademo, and that was basically a Japanese standard that never really caught on here and reached consensus.
EV fires are also incredibly rare and happen less than gasoline engines on average. And PHEVs are a great introduction especially for those take a lot of road trips and don’t want to deal with DC fast charging.
My last car was a PHEV that I owned for 4 years without a single issue until I traded it in for my current EV. It’s sort of weird to make the argument that it’s the “worst of both worlds” while saying you prefer HEVs. PHEVs are pretty much the exact same as an HEV with the exception of a larger battery and charging port. If PHEVs are the “worst of both worlds”, then so are HEVs.
And if you’re waiting on hydrogen, you’re going to be waiting for a really long time. For all of your concerns about infrastructure, hydrogen has even more, and the technology has so far proved uncompetitive with BEVs for most applications. You think BEVs are hype, but hydrogen fuel cells aren’t? lol. The oil industry (and Toyota) have been hyping hydrogen fuel cells for over 25 years. It’s getting to be fusion power levels of a running joke at this point. I remember reading an article touting hydrogen fuel cells in the mid 90s at the dentist as a teenager, and we’re no closer to substantial adoption.
I don’t think that EVs are for everyone. For some, HEVs are the way to go, especially if the owner doesn’t have the ability to charge at home. Or even (yes) PHEVs if the owner has some range anxiety and concerns about fast charging availability in their local area. But I do take issue with spreading misconceptions about EVs, which I see spread around here a lot.
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u/longrastaman Feb 07 '23
They trashed EV’s but still drive a hybrid lol
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u/SeaworthinessLeft88 Feb 07 '23
Yeah, trashing PHEVs in particular when they’re all about HEVs? I don’t get it. I filled up my old Prius prime on average 4 times a year, and the rest was local driving in EV mode. You would think that would be a huge benefit considering the gas prices we’ve seen in the past year.
I’m not even someone who recommends EVs/PHEVs to everyone. You really need to have the capability to charge at home to take advantage of all of the benefits. If they can’t install a charger or have regular access to one, an EV doesn’t make a lot of sense right now, and that’s something I completely agree with.
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u/pete_moss Feb 07 '23
Can't really see fuel cells taking off at this point. Long term we'll be generating hydrogen from electricity. It takes about 6x the energy to get hydrogen from generation into a fuel cell. It's going to be hard to justify paying that much more for fuel for most people.
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u/anoldradical Feb 07 '23
8 year transferrable warranty on the battery, 4 years on the basic vehicle. After expiration, warranty provides additional coverage of 1 year.
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u/BeKind_BeTheChange Feb 07 '23
That's fine. I still would not buy one that is out of warranty.
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Feb 07 '23
But you'd buy an ICE car out of warranty? My ICE car, like most cars built in the last 20 years has several computers, in my case 9 of them, communicating over at least 2 or more networks within the car, low and high speed CANBUS as a very minimum. It's got thousands of more mechanical components than a Tesla but despite all of that you'd buy one out of warranty but not an EV?
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u/FatBoyStew Feb 07 '23
Maintenance and replacement parts on a 10 year old ICE vehicle tends to be much much cheaper and more reliable than replacement batteries on old EV models
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u/HappyCamperPC Feb 07 '23
You're saving money every day on gas though so if you put some of that money towards your replacement battery you'd still come out ahead. We were spending roughly $120 every 10 days on petrol and now spend $10 every 10 days in electricity so a huge saving.
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u/danudey Feb 07 '23
A model S battery replacement can cost between $10-20k, which is a not insubstantial amount. How long does it take to save $20,000 on fuel costs?
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Feb 07 '23
In my case here in the UK about 10 years to save in fuel what it costs to replace a Tesla battery and I only do around 12,000 miles a year.
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u/Original-Cow-2984 Feb 07 '23
People buy off warranty ICE vehicles all the time, and the price they pay is always with risk in mind. The difference being, an EV that's off battery warranty facing a $ five figure replacement battery cost may well be a brick, while an engine replacement on an ICE vehicle, while expensive, is significantly less.
There's also not a lot of data on the decline of EV batteries, so people in general are not comfortable with that. Smaller mechanical components and chip based components aren't going to be as devastating in terms of a potential repair. I think the EV used price is dropping because there isn't confidence in the market in terms of battery range retention and longevity of the battery, and not much data to say otherwise so far.
I have driven 2 well maintained work related vehicles for my business to ~250/280k kilometers, one van was 12 years old, the other a 14 year old pickup. The only big unexpected failure was a rear differential on the pickup and it was $1300 for a reconditioned. When they were sold, there were no mechanical issues, so they depreciate to a certain point due to age and mileage, then you retain some value due to condition, maintenance records.
If I'm looking at an off warranty EV vs an ICE, each 8 years old or with 150000 miles, the risk of a major cost of battery failing on the EV would likely motivate me toward the ICE. People are pretty savvy generally on the maintenance of ICE vehicles and the value to be placed on a well maintained or poorly maintained ICE vehicle of given age and mileage. There is low knowledge base out there in the market in terms of the risk of a battery failure of an EV or the indicators that might point toward it.
This is really a concern to me in terms of the transition and the pre owned vehicle market. There are a lot of people out there that depend on pre owned vehicles for personal and business use, and there's a lot of uncertainty about whether people are going to be priced out of even the pre owned market, let alone affording new vehicles....plus the longevity expectations of a pre owned EV before a major battery replacement is required.
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Feb 07 '23
There's also not a lot of data on the decline of EV batteries
There's enough. Tesla for example has over a decade and a half of data.
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Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 09 '23
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Feb 07 '23
The car can be worked on by literally anyone including the owner.
As a former vehicle mechanic - ROFLMAO. Those days have long since gone.
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u/desertratrunner Feb 07 '23
And yet, they still seem to hold up better and less expensive to replace parts vs an EV. The technology is cool for a cheap car or short term, but having it as a long term vehicle would be insane
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u/thetimechaser Feb 07 '23
Yes. ICE cars from the 2000s onward are extremely reliable and cheap to maintain if you don't buy a known duck. Just stick to Hondas and Toyotas, ez pz.
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u/rickg Feb 07 '23
The issue is the battery. How long will it last? What happens if some cells fail? Does the whole battery need to be replaced and how much is that?
An older ICE car very rarely has a whole engine failure - a part (e.g. the fuel pump) might fail but replacing that is a few hundred, not a few thousand.
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Feb 07 '23
The issue is the battery. How long will it last?
A year or 10 years or 20 years. Like an ICE car it all depends on how it's used and looked after.
What happens if some cells fail?
The same as what happens in your laptop, you get reduced capacity so reduced mileage in this case.
Does the whole battery need to be replaced and how much is that?
There are companies that replace just the bad cells. Cost depends on the vehicle, because like cars there's a massive difference in how long it can take to do a job depending on how the vehicle is designed, and how many need replacing.
An older ICE car very rarely has a whole engine failure
Older EVs rarely have a whole battery pack or motor failure.
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u/Sir-Mocks-A-Lot Feb 07 '23
I'd say it depends on the reparability of the vehicle.
Tesla will brick your car if you have it repaired somewhere else. I'm not messing with that mess.
But if the core components are easy to replace by a third party, I don't see what the problem is.
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u/medievalmachine Feb 07 '23
Why not? They're simpler in every way. GM is making a mint from repairing Teslas, so apparently it's possible even for Teslas.
I mean, I wouldn't buy a hand assembled Model S used, but I don't buy Rolls either.
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Feb 07 '23
Ya no shit used teslas aren’t worth as much, cause after you buy it used off some dude you have to spend another $14k to get a new battery for it.
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u/DatDominican Feb 07 '23
don't the batteries have warranty for 10 years? are the warranties non transferrable?
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u/BananaFreeway Feb 07 '23
They are transferable
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u/taisui Feb 07 '23
EV is easily more durable than ICE, there is a Tesla that already ran 1M miles, try that with an ICE. Also all the maintenance and dried out rubber gaskets, timing belt, and so on, there ain't free on the ICE.
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u/SvenTropics Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
Miles matter more to ICE engines. Time matters for EVs.
The issue is that the most expensive component is that battery, but the battery mostly loses life from time. All lithium batteries gradually lose capacity just sitting on a shelf. You know your six year old laptop that won't run for more than 5 minutes before it needs to be plugged in, that's the problem.
They do a lot of things to extend the life. Stuff like passively warming the batteries, not allowing it to fully charge or discharge, etc... But it's a time thing.
Don't get me wrong, I think EVs are a no brainier if you drive 25k miles a year or more. If you drive less than 15k miles though, you'll be much better off financially with a Honda Civic.
Tesla has a warranty that after 8 years, the battery capacity will be 70% or better. With that math, your 250 mile range is now 175 miles.
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u/sirkazuo Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
In 10 years if I have to replace an EV battery I’ll do it with the $35,000 I saved on gasoline in that time lol.
I mean, I won’t because 10 year old cars are death traps and the market for cutting edge brand new EVs does not overlap with the market that worries about the maintenance costs on a 10 year old shit heap of any kind. But all the same.
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u/SvenTropics Feb 07 '23
Agreed, it just depends how much you drive. The best solution for everybody would be to have an all-electric drivetrain with a gas generator. A battery that goes for about 40 mi. It would be cheap to replace, wouldn't waste a lot of lithium, doesn't weigh a lot hurting your mileage, and it would be more than enough distance for most daily driving. When you need to go farther, just fire up the generator, and you get all the benefits of a gasoline car. Rapid refueling on long road trips and pretty great fuel economy.
Basically the Chevy Volt, which they don't make any more. However, there are some new PHEVs that look really great that work like this. I feel like all electric cars are still a niche market and the PHEVs are going to win
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u/AbidanYre Feb 07 '23
The battery life on my Volt is crap in the winter. But in the summer it's still basically as good as it was when I got it 10 years ago.
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u/sirkazuo Feb 07 '23
Honestly I've had no problems doing longer road trips in California and across the southwest in a modern EV, but if I wanted to drive across Montana for some reason I'd just rent a car for that weirdly specific edge case that I'll probably only encounter once, and keep the EV for the other 99.9% of my daily use that it handles perfectly. In practice, road trips in an EV are like 3 or 4 hours of driving punctuated by roughly half-hour stops to charge, eat, drink, use the toilet, stretch, and then carry on. You realize pretty quickly that "rapid refueling" is a silly red herring when you actually get down to it.
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Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
The issue is that the most expensive component is that battery, but the battery mostly loses life from time.
Not to mention every single charge cycle also reduces the capacity by a tiny amount.
I agree entirely though. EV advocates are delirious and live in a different world. The simple fact is they have the money to burn and don't care about anything else, they will try to argue stupid stuff like "saving the planet", but when you actually bring them up on these points, they always fall apart.
Like the guy in this very thread trying to claim that battery degradation "doesnt matter" because "whats wrong with buying a new one" after a few years is "ok" because you can "fully recycle an old car".
Failing to realise buying a new one every few years produces orders of magnitude more emissions than simply using an old ICE car until it cant run anymore.
EDIT: Lmao downvotes with no substantial arguments, the EV fanboys are mad they are suffering from cognitive dissonance! They can't possibly be wrong! They are saving the planet!!!
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u/TheLordB Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
The batteries have warranties for 10 years. I guarantee you they are not doing that because they think they will be replacing a lot of them.
Anyways… battery degradation will be somewhat a problem. Probably more of a problem than the current EV makers are saying, but there also is no evidence that the batteries are only going to last a few years.
And yes… there have been cars that had all the batteries in that car model degrade rapidly. The short answer to that is those batteries did not have proper cooling resulting in early death. There are always some mistakes made with early tech and the companies that survive learn quickly from them and fix the problems.
Ymmv, I don’t believe EV will be all rainbows and joy. There are a variety of issues they are likely to face long term both for being environmentally friendly as well as issues using them enmass. But saying they are all going to need a new battery in 2 years is also silly.
Also battery prices will drop. By the time significant numbers of current day EV batteries start dying odds are there will be cheaper replacements for them than OEM and battery recycling tech will be getting better as there are more of them to recycle and thus more incentive to invest in it helping with that side of it.
When EV hit price parity with ICE which they probably will in the next 10-15 years I think you are gonna see most people will pick EV for practical/cost reasons rather than the whole environmentally friendly side of it which I agree with you is debatable how real the advantages are actually.
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u/DreadCoder Feb 07 '23
Failing to realise buying a new one every few years produces orders of magnitude more emissions than simply using an old ICE car until it cant run anymore.
i sincerely doubt the production of a single battery causes a higher carbon footprint than say 5 years of daily driving on fossil fuel
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u/bigtimephonk Feb 07 '23
Don't get me wrong, I think EVs are a no brainier if you drive 25k miles a year or more. If you drive less than 15k miles though, you'll be much better off financially with a Honda Civic.
You couldn't possibly prove this.
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u/morgang321 Feb 07 '23
Two battery replacements and motor replacements, million mile frame and lcd screen.
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Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
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u/No_Ad4739 Feb 07 '23
Lmao “computer chips”. Did your knowledge of cars get stuck in the 1960s or something?
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u/HotIce05 Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
RockitDang
- Computer chips can go wrong on ANY car.
- Touch screens can go wrong on ANY car.
- Power loss? You mean limp mode? Literally a feature on EVERY ICE car to prevent itself from blowing itself up if something is wrong.
- Higher repair cost? What is there to repair? Oh, you mean the tires that EVERY CAR needs to I don't know, drive? ICE cars have to go get oil changes, tune-ups, etc. Not a thing for an electric car.
- No towing capacity? Uhhh....The F150 Lightning can two just fine. Does your range take a hit? Absolutely, but it can tow. The Freightliner eCascadia can tow 82,000 pounds - just as much as its diesel counterpart.
- Buggy updates can go wrong on ANY car.
- A. Poor build quality? You mean the thing that's manufacturer dependent? A Honda Civic won't have the same build quality as a BMW 3 series or Mercedes C Class.B. If you think the BMW iX has poor build quality, your opinion really doesn't even matter.
- Battery Degradation? The average ICE car lasts ~133,000 miles. The average electric car is estimated to last 200,000.
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u/RhoOfFeh Feb 07 '23
I met Irv Gordon once. He was visiting a local Volvo dealership and I had one at the time.
The amount of money and time he spent to get that car to a million miles could have been used to get a couple of new cars over the years. Keeping an old, outdated car and spending your time on it is a nice hobby but it is not for everyone.
There are steam powered vehicles still running, too. They're for hobbyists and enthusiasts.
There are horses and carriages, although that's now being phased out as we recognize that it's pretty mean to do that to the animals. But horses are for the wealthy or for special occasions.
You see where I'm going with this, right? Don't go passing laws that someone has to be walking along in front of the EV swinging a lantern, okay? The change is happening, and it's going faster than you may expect.
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u/MonicaPVD Feb 07 '23
People buy used high mileage European ICE cars all the time, literally a box of headaches, what's your point? Most normal people don't keep sophisticated cars that long. Anyone who buys an old car with tons of tech in it has it coming.
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u/Abba_Fiskbullar Feb 07 '23
Used Teslas are still much more valuable than equivalent used internal combustion cars, but due to pent up demand post pandemic and six months wait times for new Teslas, used Teslas were selling for more than new ones. Tesla has opened a new factory in Texas, dropped prices, and new cars have access to the federal tax credit. This means that used Teslas have had to drop in price to cost less than new ones.
Most EVe have long transferrable warranties on the battery pack, and the batteries on post 2015 Teslas have been very reliable, running into the hundreds of thousands of miles.
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u/Jprev40 Feb 07 '23
In 7-10 years I’ll be buying a new EV regardless. And I bet most of you will do the same. By then they may finally be flying!
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u/TinyBig_Jar0fPickles Feb 07 '23
If the infrastructure catches up, sure. You have to consider that many people wouldn't have a place to charge an EV. I love in a major city that is very left leaning, most people would probably want an EV. Most condos still don't allow for EV chargers in parking spots. Lots of people in the city use street parking. Not to mention winters here suck. And let's not forget that in summers we hear about not using the ACs too much because it can cause blackouts, I don't know how we add a couple million EVs to this.
I would already have an EV if it actually made sense.
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u/Objective_Ad_401 Feb 07 '23
EVs charge overnight, AC demand is highest in the afternoons and early evenings.
Electricity demand is not constant all day, there are peaks. Most people who work in the field (generation, EE) maintain that excess generation capacity can be used at night to charge EVs and other storage devices (pumped hydro, VFB) and used or returned to the grid to "shave" peak demand.
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u/FatBoyStew Feb 07 '23
Unless EV trucks make leap and bounds in towing range and go down DRASTICALLY in price I won't even think about an EV sadly.
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u/brickfrenzy Feb 07 '23
I traded in my Model Y to buy an EV6 September of last year. The dealer is now trying to sell it for $5k less than what they gave me in trade. Oops.
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u/anoldradical Feb 07 '23
What a dumb fucking post. Cars aren't investments. They drop in value. Up until two months ago, the title would have been "prices for used Tesla's are shockingly close to retail". I didn't care then either.
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u/ww_crimson Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
Yea because in a few years they're gonna need a 10k battery
edit: to all the replies below me, I know that the batteries generally last a while, but there are two problems.
- They degrade over time, usually by 10% in the first 5-7 years or 100k miles, and another 10% for a total of 20% by 200k miles. Imagine your ICE car going from 30mpg to 24mpg on the freeway.
- Batteries are like 10-25k to replace, even using remanufactured ones. A replacement engine is typically around 5k. Buying a 10 year old Tesla for 30k and then potentially needing to spend 10-25k to replace the batteries in another 10 years is fucking insanity.
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u/pkennedy Feb 07 '23
https://www.nimblefins.co.uk/study-real-life-tesla-battery-deterioration
Uk site, but all numbers are in miles.
Real life battery degradation is showing 85% @ 230,000 miles. It's not going from 30mpg to 24mpg, it's gas tank is shrinking essentially, quite a different analogy.
Average US drivers drive 14,000 miles per year. That is enough for 16 years of driving. The average time a car remains on the road in the US is 17 years before something takes it off like a major repair, accident, etc.
Average US driver holds their car for 6 years before trading it in. So the average user isn't likely to notice much more than 7% degradation before trading it in. New owners are going to know the car as having X miles range from day 1 and it will probably degrade a further 7% while they own it.
Those Nissan Leafs, they were a mess for sure. Losing 50% range over a few years and having expensive batteries to replace and having limited range to start with. But something like a Tesla or any of the modern EV's have long lasting batteries, long enough that the average user will never have to worry about them.
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u/OwMyBalllz Feb 07 '23
You are only looking at the negative (and your numbers are suspect). You’ll save a few thousand in gas alone per year. Oil changes, regularly scheduled maintenance, brake jobs,… Our three year old EV has never needed any maintenance and won’t need any for the foreseeable future.
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u/Fabulous-Ad6844 Feb 07 '23
Same. I’m in my 5th year of PHEV EV ownership. I’m about paid back now or soon. I went from a heavy Lexus SUV that was getting 13MPG & a ‘ball tearer’ of a service & maintenance bill every 6 months. The service on my PHEV have been so shockingly low I’ve stealthily left in case they made a mistake. Eg $550 Lexus service vs $60 GM service.
I still have another 3 years & 45k miles on battery warranty. But hopefully I’ll get lucky in that it will stay good or battery prices get a lot cheaper.
I would never buy another ICE car.
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u/OwMyBalllz Feb 07 '23
Same. We still have an ICE, that was already paid off, to use situationally but i have bought my last ICE vehicle too.
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u/standardtissue Feb 07 '23
EV’s don’t use typical brake pads and discs ? Or they are so torquey that the motor torque does a lot of the braking for you ?
Also, yeah I realize no or less fuel and maintenance costs, but seems that the price of EV’s more than makes up for the savings every time I math it out.
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u/OwMyBalllz Feb 07 '23
As far as braking they have conventional brakes it’s just that the regenerative braking you use the motors to slow the car (it’s like how downshifting in a manual can slow the car but much better) so you rarely need to use the conventional brakes, making the pads potentially last a very very long time. I probably touch the brakes once for every forty or fifty miles of driving. When we got out Ev i ran the numbers and it wasn’t that much more than an Subaru outback but with far far lower ongoing costs.
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u/Trojann2 Feb 07 '23
Yeah, and on cars with regenerative braking, you don’t need to change the brake pads for 4-5 years. Or more.
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u/drysart Feb 07 '23
EVs are able to make use of the fact that electric motors are also electric generators1 as a way of assisting in slowing down the vehicle without use of traditional pads-on-discs braking; and as a result, the brake pads and discs get used considerably less than on an ICE vehicle, and so they last a lot longer.
Gentle to moderate braking on an EV is accomplished by asking the motor to act as a generator instead, which brakes the vehicle without any physical contact from the traditional disc brakes (and puts some charge back into your battery, too). The disc brakes are mostly there to handle braking conditions that the motor can't deal with itself.
1 - The electromagnetic field used by an electric motor works in both directions equally; so an electric motor creates motion when electricity is put into it, consuming the electricity in the process; and it creates electricity when motion is put into it, consuming the motion in the process.
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u/Ok-Welder-4816 Feb 07 '23
Don't you still need to replace brakes? Even regenerative ones?
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u/OwMyBalllz Feb 07 '23
Regenerative breaking by reversing the electric motors and collecting some energy in the process. There is no friction or wear. Teslas still have conventional brakes with pads that would need to be replaced but since you rarely need to use them they can potentially last a very very long time.
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u/-transcendent- Feb 07 '23
Regenerative braking uses the car momentum to spin the same motor to generate electricity. There’s no physically contact involve like regular brakes.
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u/sywofp Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
The gas savings are of course good and EV is the future.
But aside from gas it's not that different to a good ICE car. My 14 year old corolla has needed three oil changes in the past the years and nothing else. And the same for the the years before that. Oil is a very minor cost. There's no key wearing parts that will change that anytime soon.
Maintenance is a very small cost for a well built car. The transmission never needs the fluid changed, and the few maintenance items at high mileage are still not expensive.
I compared to various EV options but the saving on fuel is not yet worth it overall.
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u/Solarisphere Feb 07 '23
There are still a ton of parts on electric cars that can break. Suspension, the entire body, wiring, stereo, etc. it’s not just the engine that does on older vehicles.
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u/OwMyBalllz Feb 07 '23
Yes but thats not useful for cost comparison since all that stuff can wear out and break too. Far far less stuff to wear out on an Ev. Believe what you will, i’ll just be over here saving thousands every year driving my EVs.
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u/modefi_ Feb 07 '23
Believe what you will, i’ll just be over here saving thousands every year driving my EVs.
I could fill my tank for 5 years and still have $10K left over for maintenance (if I even need it) with just the difference of MSRP on my vehicle and a Model 3.
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u/medievalmachine Feb 07 '23
If you've got a cheap car, compare it to a Bolt then. EVs are great for costs, just not for long trips.
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u/Zebo91 Feb 07 '23
Model 3 are luxury vehicles. Do you currently drive a luxury vehicle to save money?
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u/taisui Feb 07 '23
with just the difference of MSRP on my vehicle and a Model 3.
but your vehicle also doesn't drive like a Tesla.
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u/ww_crimson Feb 07 '23
Good points, especially the analogy. I still maintain that it's a factor in the prices dropping/reduced demand. Also acknowledge that the points in the article contribute too.
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u/Solarisphere Feb 07 '23
What? That’s a terrible analogy. You’re not losing fuel economy, your gas tank is shrinking.
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u/empirebuilder1 Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
Imagine your ICE car going from 30mpg to 24mpg on the freeway.
This isn't even that farfetched though. It's already happening. As cars age they become more inefficient. Depending on the level of maintenance (since a lot of ICE cars get quite neglected later in life), it wouldn't be totally crazy to see a car start to lose 2, 3, even 5mpg due to loss of compression and deposit buildups in the engine, catalytic converters clogging up, and the almost universal occurrence of the aero plastic panels underneath falling off without being replaced.
Machines becoming inefficient as they age is a constant of the natural world. Universal entropy cannot be defeated.
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u/Syris3000 Feb 07 '23
My ICE 2012 Kia optima with 145k miles gets shit milage now. Used to be over 33 mpg highway but now lucky to get 27. City is even worse at like 19-20 max. It's rated to 35/24 when new.
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u/topiast Feb 07 '23
Kia engines are notoriously bad. It sounds like you're loosing compression if you don't have a CEL
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u/Syris3000 Feb 07 '23
Plenty of ice engines do the exact same thing (for a multitude of reasons)
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u/phoenix1984 Feb 07 '23
Came here to say this. I would challenge them to find a ICE car that got the same or less maintenance as an electric car that still runs at all after 200k miles, much less lost a bit of efficiency. Electric cars are more costly to make with battery costs being what they are, but the second they roll off the lot, the cost of ownership beats an ICE vehicle. It’s not even close.
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u/Thanks-_-Obama Feb 07 '23
My 2013 Subaru gets 25mph at 260k miles. Idk what it got new but I’m sure it wasn’t much better.
Edit they claimed 35mpg highway when new so in 9 years I have lost 10mpg. That’s also for the automatic can’t find what the 5 speeds was and I’m to lazy to look.
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u/FatBoyStew Feb 07 '23
What? There are TONS of ICE vehicles running with well over 200k... I sold my first truck at 281,000 miles...
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u/PPatBoyd Feb 07 '23
The numbers I'm seeing for Tesla battery degradation are half what you're suggesting, 10% after 200k not 20% (though battery tech differs over iterations and between brands) https://electrek.co/2021/08/12/tesla-claims-battery-packs-lose-only-capacity-200000-miles/ but those numbers are kinda old and we might have better numbers, I didn't look long.
Sidebar is mpg the right comparison? I usually see degradation referring to range loss rather than efficiency, i.e. an 18 gallon tank becoming a 16 gallon tank. I wouldn't doubt an efficiency loss also occurs, but that's a different metric and I'm inclined to suspect it would be less dramatic of an issue.
For battery vs engine replacement cost I think the more appropriate comparison would be TCO over the time period, which encompasses more than just the engine/battery part purchase and purchasing labor over time for all repairs and maintenance the vehicle needs. There's also an unknown factor of continued developments in battery tech for cost of battery and styles of repairs (e.g. replacing cells vs whole) that are more likely than not to bring that price down over time as EVs and the environment around EV maintenance continues to mature. That's not to discount the importance of minding the higher "one-time" costs associated with EVs in purchasing decisions, just setting the right comparison.
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u/shawnkfox Feb 07 '23
Prices dropped on used Tesla cars because Tesla just massively dropped the price of their new cars. The drop in prices of new Tesla cars pulled down the price of all other used EV cars as well. Why buy a used car when you can get a new one for the same price? Tesla cars still hold their value better than most ICE cars because the total cost of ownership is far lower even when you add the eventual cost of replacing the battery after 200k miles or so.
If you own an ICE car you'll be spending big money at 150-200k miles as well for major engine repairs. You'll also spend more in the first 150k miles on maintenance like oil changes than you would on an EV. Tons of studies that show EVs cost less to maintain than ICE.
Your post is complete nonsense and it amazes me that it got any upvotes at all. If you had even read the article rather than just responding to the headline the article specifically mentioned the price drop of new Tesla cars as being the primary factor in pulling down the price of used Tesla cars.
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u/Island-Cacti-n-Myco Feb 07 '23
part of the difference, and i say this as someone who really wants an electric car. i can repair an car at home. i have the tools and training. i budget $200/month for car parts and it keeps several cars pushing 200k on the road. my average purchase price for my vehicles has been $3000. All my vehicles can still go a full tank of gas. Even a blown engine can be fixed in a few weekends for less than $800 in parts. I can’t really work on a battery pack safely even though I’m pretty competent with these things. Some cars like the nissan leaf have a battery pack than can be swapped, but the better ones it’s pretty integral. There is going to be a bit of an issue as more of these cars get to the battery replacement age, because it will just work differently than ICE cars. Nobody will want to spend $10k swapping batteries in a car where the rest of it is worn out.
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u/vanilla_icecream Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
So you're willing to spend $200/month on car parts, give up your weekends for more work on said cars, and who knows how much on gas on the off chance the battery dies? Tesla's batteries still hold 90% of their capacity after 150k miles. Shit even if you drive like a normal American at 14k miles/year you'd have the car for basically 11 years to see a 10% reduction in capacity.
So even if it fails after year 11 and takes $10k to replace, you yourself said you're willing to spend $26,400 on car parts alone ($200/month for 11 years), plus your time (what's your cost on that?), plus all the gas in the same time frame? I guess I'm just confused on the math where you're afraid to spend $10k on something that is unlikely to happen in a timeframe where you're also comfortable spending $26k plus your time fixing a bunch of stuff.
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u/Island-Cacti-n-Myco Feb 07 '23
i can’t write a check for the electric car at all, even at 150k miles. the payment is significantly more than my gas and parts budget combined, and i certainly can’t afford a 10k battery that’s an eventuality not a possibility. also that battery is going to cost more than the car will be worth immediately post battery, when the battery dies the car is scrap. i get to leverage my time and skills to drive nicer cars than i could otherwise afford to do. i can’t afford an electric car.
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u/reddit_user13 Feb 07 '23
What is your time worth? What is the opportunity cost of having your car inoperable or partly disassembled when you need it?
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u/Island-Cacti-n-Myco Feb 07 '23
i maintain and fuel three vehicles for the cost of a payment on a single bargain basement electric car.
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u/reddit_user13 Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
And I can ride a bike for free, so?
But seriously having that one EV would reduce your time, hassle, and gas station stops to zero.
As someone who has had their share of 1-2 paycheck cars, and a garage full of tools to prove it, it’s kind of refreshing to do nothing.
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u/WeimSean Feb 07 '23
lol I like how you address everything but the underlying argument: The need to replace the car battery is an impediment to long term ownership and the vehicle's resale value.
Because it is. At 200k miles, a regular car engine can be replaced much more cheaply than a Tesla battery. That's a cost that is going to drive down the value of a used Tesla, because everyone is aware of this 'feature'. Pretending otherwise, or attacking people for saying something that is basic common sense won't change that.
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u/-mudflaps- Feb 07 '23
That's been known for years, so it doesn't explain the recent drop in prices does it?
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u/ww_crimson Feb 07 '23
Because the cars were all newer and we are now approaching a point where the used EV market isn't exclusively 3-4 year old vehicles.
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u/OrdyNZ Feb 07 '23
At 200k miles a replacement motor in newer vehicles is still going to be expensive + everything else that wears out. But you're still going to have to pay for Petrol to run the vehicle.
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u/FurmanSK Feb 07 '23
Who replaces a motor at 200k miles? Did they forget to change the oil a lot?
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u/shawnkfox Feb 07 '23
Except I did address it. Seems you need to read what I said again, maybe you'll understand it on your second attempt.
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u/standardtissue Feb 07 '23
ICE cars do actually go down in efficiency over time as well… I think the big difference being if you maintain if very well you can slow the decline drastically. Things like tire pressure and racks make a noticeable decline in efficiency as well if you actually track your consumption.
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u/grapesinajar Feb 07 '23
This is why I'm buying a hybrid. It seems their batteries last quite a long time.
The second issue is that I'm sure in a few years there will be new battery tech which is safer and longer lasting, so buying an EV then will make more sense long term.
It's the old story, only get into brand new tech if you have money to burn. Usually best to wait for a much improved "version 2" of the tech.
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u/pkennedy Feb 07 '23
Many of these cars have hundreds of thousands of miles on their original batteries.
The batteries have been mass produced for 20+ years for other applications.
So it's unlikely something better and safer is going to come around.
Unless you're worried about fires? But then you would get rid of your gas car immediately since they have a far higher chance of catching fire statistically... but I doubt that is what you meant.
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u/SomethingMatter Feb 07 '23
A buddy of mine bought a second hand Leaf. I think it had 7 or 8 years on the clock. The batteries on the car were shot. The range is very limited. He doesn't mind because he only travels about 10 miles to and from work each day but still.
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u/BeShifty Feb 07 '23
That car should've had its battery replaced at no cost then - federal regulations require EV manufacturers to provide warranties covering battery degregation for 8 years/100,000 mi. Nissan will replace the battery if the range falls below 75% while under warranty. If out of warranty, the battery replacement supposedly costs $5,500.
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u/SomethingMatter Feb 07 '23
That would make sense. It was probably just outside the 8 year window. He got it cheap. Definitely cheaper than $5500 so I don't think he would have paid for the replacement batteries, I will need to ask.
It was a couple of years back but, IIRC, the range on the car was at most 20 miles on a charge. The previous owner probably screwed something up and used a supercharger based on the other comments.
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u/Be-like-water-2203 Feb 07 '23
Mine leaf is 9 years, lost only one bar on battery, key is to never use chademo/supercharger because leaf doesn't have a liquid cooling, like fucking zero cooling for battery.
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u/happyscrappy Feb 07 '23
That car is not a good example. It was built without a way to cool the battery pack. A big problem in many areas of the US.
The range was very limited even on day 1. The original normal range for the car was about 65 miles.
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u/ebbiibbe Feb 07 '23
My BF had a Tesla had owned since 2012. The charging was painfully slow. The range terrible. In 2033 people will be saying the same about these current EVs. My 20 plus year old Mercedes can still beat most cars at the light and I fill up just as fast as any new car.
The batteries are trash the older they get. Enough people having owned EVs for 10 plus years to provide the info.
I'm all for EVs but the current ones are disposable which makes them decidedly not green. The batteries have to be swappable some time in the very near future.
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u/jrob323 Feb 07 '23
And also, Teslas don't have the same personality cult surrounding them now that Elon has revealed himself to be a right-wing shithead. I would be embarrassed to drive one of his cars now, frankly. They always screamed "prick", but now it's "conservative prick".
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u/Plzbanmebrony Feb 07 '23
In terms of thing that could go wrong electric cars are simple. Motor and then battery. No transmission, engine, engine mounts. You are back ending your repair cost.
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u/ww_crimson Feb 07 '23
You can buy a new car for the cost of a battery replacement
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u/fiddlenutz Feb 07 '23
Yup. I have a 1979 El Camino in the driveway that still runs strong but needs interior work. I also have a newer hybrid that I know will never make to 44 years.
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u/pkennedy Feb 07 '23
And 99.99% of 1979 El Camino's have been taken off the road and destroyed as they failed to survive.
Just because you have one of the few that are left, doesn't make them a better car overall, it just makes it one of the few that survived all that time.
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u/ww_crimson Feb 07 '23
Yea but mechanically it's possible. With batteries it's just not.
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u/nhavar Feb 07 '23
What BS. Like an ICE vehicle never needs a new engine or transmission, doesn't rust out, doesn't have suspension problems, doesn't have a host of after market parts that need to be purchased to keep it working like new. It's a completely disingenuous argument. My grandfather had a 79 El Camino sit in the drive way for 20 years and that's all it did was sit because the engine and transmission were too far gone and parts were too expensive for him at the time. That will be the determining factor, not can it be done, but can it be done at the cost a consumer can pay. Plenty of El Camino's sat rusting away in people's driveways, backyards, and family barns or were shipped off for scrap because people couldn't afford to keep them running. The same will be true of EV's. But that doesn't mean that EV's can't be maintained at all.
For instance I watched a video on the Nissan Leaf and how many battery updates they've had between 2010 and today and how there is equipment to update from the old battery to the new battery formats so that your 2010 Leaf doesn't go right into the junk pile. As EV's become mainstream so too will that sort of capability; To just take your EV to any old shop and have it fixed. Mechanics at some point will switch from purely mechanical subject matter experts to understanding more about the batter and motor technology as well, possibly good enough to rebuild a battery, replacing only the worn parts and shaving thousands off the cost of replacement.
Also more manufacturers are building their own recycling and second life streams for used batteries. This will help them find new revenue streams and reduce the cost of replacing batteries too.
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Feb 07 '23
Mechanics at some point will switch from purely mechanical subject matter experts to understanding more about the batter and motor technology as well, possibly good enough to rebuild a battery,
You know they have been doing this for decades right?
Cars haven't been "purely mechanic" since the 70's dude....
You can't do shit when the car maker locks everything down though.
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u/fiddlenutz Feb 07 '23
I never said it was better, I just don’t see any of these newer hybrid/battery cars living to being over 25 years in use, and even that is a stretch.
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u/nobody_smith723 Feb 07 '23
I mean the counter to this is there are tons of cars that easily get 100k. And then 200-400k miles. And last for decades
I have never known anyone rocking an older EV. And have known a couple people who bought like preowned Prius(es). Only to have something on the car go that cost more than the car so the person junked it.
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u/pkennedy Feb 07 '23
Therer aren't many old EV's but there are a number of heavily used EV's that far exceed anything an old car could do, unless it's engines had been replaced multiple times. EV's got quick adoption in areas where massive amounts of driving could rack up hundreds of thousands of miles in a few years. So there are decent examples out there.
The parts on a Prius aren't that expensive, it's simply hourly rates. Take that 79 El Camino into the local ford dealership and have them replace the engine in it, see what it costs.
All the prius owners I've known, put a lot of mileage on them. They get used for taxi's for a reason. They just work, and when you factor in the gas costs, they work cheapily.
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u/burkechrs1 Feb 07 '23
I bet I can make a 70s car get me to work and home reliably much cheaper than I can replace the batteries in a Tesla a few times.
But we don't even have to go that far back.
I have a 92 civic I use as a daily. It was bought new in my family in 1992 and was passed down to me after going through some other hands in my family. My family has kept every single receipt since that car was purchased. That car is 31 years old and has cost my family a grand total, since the day it was purchased, less than $30k TOTAL in all costs excluding gas and oil changed.
I can't even buy a new Tesla for 40k, let alone keep it on the road for 31 years for that amount. That alone makes it shit. I shouldn't need to buy a new vehicle every 3-5 years, I should only need to replace my vehicle if it's wrecked. Cars should be affordable and capable of maintaining for a lifetime for minimal cost.
Cost matters and the cheaper car that last 30 years will always be a better vehicle than a $45k car that needs a minimum of $15k in maintenance costs every decade.
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u/pkennedy Feb 07 '23
You excluded oil and gas? wtf? How about including that in there.
Now you're comparing a car that is 30 years old, without including inflation in there. That would be around 130%, so $70K PLUS oil and gas. A civic would run you about 500 gallons per year, and roughly 3 oil changes per year for the average user, AND a tesla battery might not even be needed to changed during that time... because there are current tesla cars out there with original batteries that have already done 30 years worth of "normal" driving, who have OEM batteries and holding 90% of their battery.
Oil and gas on the low end would run you about $50,000 with some inflation adjustments in there.
You've paid over $130,000 and complaining about a 40K tesla, that if you bought solar as well, wouldn't even cost you anything after the first 7 years or so?
You should really do your math better.
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Feb 07 '23
roughly 3 oil changes per year for the average user,
L M A O WHAT?!?!?!?!?
3 OIL CHANGES A YEAR???
Do you take it to the track every month???
One change every year is more than enough for any non-track car....
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u/Pretend-Gate210 Feb 07 '23
I have a 2nd gen Prius with 400k miles on the original battery. These hybrids definitely do last.
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u/pixel_of_moral_decay Feb 07 '23
Exactly right.
And new car prices also dropped as more non-Tesla options enter the market.
The price is really with the idea that you’ll also be replacing that battery. That’s part of the math.
They’re still way too high. The vehicles aren’t worth that much.
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u/ixid Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
In ten years the battery pack will cost a lot less than 10k to 25k to replace, battery costs are dropping rapidly. You'd probably be looking at 2k to 5k. Over that timescale it's also likely there will be new and rising costs for ICE vehicles.
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u/asdaaaaaaaa Feb 07 '23
Yep, so many people were desperate to deny this was a reality with EV's. Maybe in the future there'll be better options, but paying roughly a third of the cost of the car itself is a bit much. Especially when other vehicles aren't going to require that expensive of an overhaul.
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u/R1ddl3 Feb 07 '23
I'm seeing that Tesla batteries are still at 90-95% of their original capacity after 80-100k miles.
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u/babyyodaisamazing98 Feb 07 '23
WTF is with these comments? 90% of them are just flat out fantasy.
The prices are dropping because the new car prices are dropping due to tax credits and Tesla slashing prices to be more competitive. ICE cars don’t see this drop because they don’t have tax credits and are already competitive.
The batteries last 500,000 miles, no one is not buying an EV because the battery might wear out. This isn’t 1990 anymore.
The maintenance cost is literally 1/10th that of an ICE, no one is not buying an EV because of the maintenance cost.
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u/charlskov Feb 07 '23
But batteries lose a good chunk of mileage as they age no?
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u/babyyodaisamazing98 Feb 07 '23
About 5% over 500,000 miles. So if you had 300 mile range when new you’d have 285 miles range when you scrapped the car 500,000 miles later.
Battery technology has advanced significantly in the last 20 years. It’s just been a ton of small advancements instead of one big one so people seem very unaware.
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Feb 07 '23
About 5% over 500,000 miles.
Lmfao you tesla fanboys really are just the best.
Another guy in this very thread links an article to show that they "only" lose 5-10% in 100k miles. ONLY!
So which one is it? who is lying?
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u/fatalbert491 Feb 07 '23
Tell that to the people paying 20 grand to replace the batteries in their 5 year old Tesla.
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u/babyyodaisamazing98 Feb 07 '23
Tesla has an 8 year battery warranty. Want to try again?
https://www.tesla.com/sites/default/files/downloads/Model_3_New_Vehicle_Limited_Warranty_NA_en.pdf
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u/hersheyMcSquirts Feb 07 '23
It’s a temporary drop. When gas prices shoot up again(and they always do) the prices will go up as consumers think the new current situation is the new norm and scramble for fuel efficiency.
As for quality control, it’s not perfect at Tesla. But I don’t get the impression it’s any worse than the Big 3. It’s the flavor of the month in the media. And with anyone able to upload a video, any mishap whether factual or fabricated can reach millions before being vetted.
The used prices over the summer were absurd. I sold my Tesla for $8500 more than it had cost me 20 months earlier.
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u/bigflamingtaco Feb 07 '23
As for quality control, it’s not perfect at Tesla. But I don’t get the impression it’s any worse than the Big 3.
Elon built Tesla almost exclusively on hype, and left at the door processes that make automotive makers successful. Now that the hype is dying, the cracks are staring to show. Literally. Tesla has been producing cars for, what, 15 years now? Why are they still having panel alignment issues? That's crap we haven't seen from startups since the 70's. QC should have identified the cause and fixed it mid-production, not continue it across multiple vehicle lines.
I could go on, but I've repeated how they AREN'T operating like a top level automotive mfg so many times, even Reddit is bored with me.
And the problem isn't Tesla, it's Elon. He needs to step aside and let people that enjoy designing cars and being in the automotive industry run the company.
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u/hersheyMcSquirts Feb 07 '23
You’re not wrong. But I’ve had 2 teslas and both had better panel alignment than my 2012 Subaru.
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u/terrorbots Feb 07 '23
My 02 Nissan, made in America has perfect panel alignment, it's not a fluke or anything it's that they were built right.
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u/imposter22 Feb 07 '23
Having my family full of mechanics (both father and father in law, brothers) , I can tell you that the Big 3 have a lot of problems out of the factory.
The only difference for quality between Tesla and Big 3, is the Big 3 get examined and fixed by the dealer before they hit the consumer.
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u/bigflamingtaco Feb 08 '23
Wow, you just explained what QC is!
If only I had mentioned Tesla has a QC problem...
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u/tumbleweedzzz Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
“Hype is dying” stop it 😂, Teslas are the top selling EV and will continue to be. Get your brain out of the gutter with what the media is telling you and read/watch actual tesla news and reviews.
I’m not saying Teslas are perfect cars, because they’re clearly not abs QC issues definitely exist from lack of 3rd party inspectors, but it’s just trendy to hate on tesla and musk and it’s extremely overblown.
Edit: Downvoted for being right, no surprise here
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u/Matt_Tress Feb 07 '23
“Downvoted for being right” = epitome of narcissistic personality disorder.
It’s possible for you to be wrong.
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u/wavewatchjosh Feb 07 '23
People don't like to be told they are on a hate train.
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u/tumbleweedzzz Feb 07 '23
I wish people actually read the garbage they’re being fed 😔
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u/wavewatchjosh Feb 07 '23
That would be great, but we would have to get pass our monke brain rewarding us in joining the mob.
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u/Nemesis_Bucket Feb 07 '23
Just watch some videos on Teslas on YouTube and you’ll see that yes quality control is much worse than the big 3.
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u/littleMAS Feb 07 '23
During the dot-bomb, Cisco Systems, who had grown to dominate the network equipment business, saw its stock drop from $80+/share to about $8. Being the dominant manufacturer, its business closely mirrored the entire industry's fortunes, and it was not being overtaken by any competitor -- except itself.
The retraction of the tech world caused many companies to retract or even shutter. And their discarded networking equipment hit the aftermarket, which was very price sensitive. The resulting glut drove used Cisco equipment pricing down, and Cisco customers suddenly discovered they could by a used switch or router for a fraction of the cost of a new one. Cisco was being beaten in its own market place by its own equipment.
With the largest inventory of used EVs, Tesla may now find itself in a similar position. Of course, EVs depreciate due to 'wear and tear' much more than networking equipment, but they tend to hold up better than ICE cars, whose drive trains literally wear themselves out. Unlike Cisco at the turn of the millennium, Tesla faces major competitors with fast resources and distribution, who are selling from the very top of the market (e.g., Audi, Mercedes) to the bottom (e.g., Kia, Chevy), giving buyers a huge number of alternative price points. As such, Tesla may be stuck between a rock and a hard place.
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u/KungFuHamster Feb 07 '23 edited Feb 07 '23
I've been reading a lot of bad things about quality control with Teslas, parts just falling off.
Edit: I get it, you think those posts are "fake news." But the fact is, I've been reading it, and so has everyone else. Downvoting me isn't downvoting those people. Go downvote those people instead of telling me I didn't see what I saw.
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u/tumbleweedzzz Feb 07 '23
Because what you’ve reading is media following the trend of hating on anything Elon related. Everything is so overblown
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u/t0ny7 Feb 07 '23
It is so insane there can be an issue with one Tesla and it makes national news.
My buddy bought an F-150 and the transmission failed. The dealer could not fix it and he had to fight to lemon law it and get a new one.
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u/jeremyjack3333 Feb 07 '23
Electric cars aren't like gas powered cars. If something goes wrong you can't just change out a part. The whole system needs to be checked. And most shops don't know how to do it.
If you need a battery replacement, you're screwed.
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u/fruitloops6565 Feb 07 '23
Makes sense to me for many reasons. a) they started as largely a trend/fashion item and b) they were initially very expensive with long waits which has improved, and c) the tech and competition is improving rapidly making new EVs superior
Gas cars be gas cars… nothing new there.
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u/ihatepalmtrees Feb 07 '23
And I’m sure all the oil loving people out there won’t let us forget it!
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u/Prophayne_ Feb 07 '23
I think base models costing 3x more than they are worth while gas models followed the same trends they always have may have something to do with it, but that's just my theory. A car theory.
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u/user4517proton Feb 07 '23
I would think the live of the battery to have a big part in that. The batteries degrade over time and eventually will need to be replaced. That is not cheap. ChatGPT thinks a car would be usable even when the battery has lost 70% of its charging capacity. I think owners will think differently.
ChatGPT:
The battery capacity, or the amount of energy that can be stored in the battery, will start to degrade over time, usually after the first few years of use. This degradation can lead to a reduced driving range and slower charging times. When the degradation reaches a certain point, typically when the battery capacity falls below a certain threshold (usually around 60-70% of its original capacity), the battery may need to be replaced.
It's important to note that battery replacement can be expensive, so it's best to check the manufacturer's warranty and recommended maintenance schedule for your specific EV to determine when you may need to replace the battery.
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u/SuitableNegotiation5 Feb 07 '23
Huh. Sounds like people want cars that don't spontaneously combust or have their steering wheel fall off! Crazy. (Obv. Pointed in Tesla's direction)
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Feb 07 '23
They're having to because of the amount of buyers remorse that is now making it onto social media and the internet as people discover the reality of living with an EV as a daily driver with the woeful lack of sufficient or in some areas any charging infrastructure away from your home as well as the sheer cost of the power you're paying for.
Here in the UK even charging at home the cost per mile is now on par with a diesel car and the cost of diesel has started to drop, 5% in my local petrol station just over this weekend alone, whilst the cost of electricity is set to be static or even rise slightly over the next 6 months at least.
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u/mordecaidrake Feb 07 '23
That's because they're going to require a massive additional purchase in a new battery. Used EV's are not a wise investment.
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u/OldsDiesel Feb 07 '23
Because it costs 10-15k to replace a battery pack on this. Even more actually.
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u/PhD_Pwnology Feb 07 '23
Too bad poor people who are required to take cars to work more than upper class people can't afford one, and the people who can afford one can't find a EV that will go further than 300 miles which fits their needs. I love EV's and think they are future, but until someone other than tesla gets their head out of their ass I'm not buying one.
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u/Fariic Feb 07 '23
You’re a fucking idiot if you buy an out of warranty EV.
It’s guaranteed to eventually need parts replaced that will eclipse what the car is worth.
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u/Livid-Astronomer-727 Feb 07 '23
Someone give Ford dealerships this info so they can fuck off with thier 100k used Lightnings